April 10, 2026 – Moments that Matter Chris Dyer and Enneagram Expert Dr. Karl Hebenstreit

0:04 Intro 1 : Broadcasting from am and FM stations around the country. Welcome to the Small Business Administration award winning school for startups radio where we talk all things small business and entrepreneurship. Now here is your host, the guy that believes anyone can be a successful entrepreneur, because entrepreneurship is not about creativity, risk or passion. Jim Beach,

0:26 Jim Beach : Hello everyone. Welcome to another exciting edition of School for startups Radio. Thank you so much for being with us today. We have a great show for you as always. First up, we have Chris Dyer talking about moments that matter. I had not really thought about how important moments are certain things that stick out, certain days and events that are going to be a part of your life, and that when you look back 30 years later, that those are the days you remember. He has done an amazing job of categorizing them and figuring out how to remember them, create them, memorialize them, and use them for your good. So it’s a great conversation with Chris. I’m excited for you to learn from that. After that, we’re going to talk about the enneagrams, you know, the little pictures that show what your personality is. We have Carl human street with us to talk about that. There’s a lot to learn here, a lot that you can learn about yourself and your personality. I’m going to do in the NEA Graham test and get certified or figured out what I am. So it’s a great show. We’re going to go ahead and get started right now. Here we go. Thus, I’m very excited to welcome a great guest to the show with a new book. Please welcome Chris Dyer. He is the Make Work work guy. He is a human connection leader and the number one leadership speaker by Inc Magazine. He has a new book out called moments that matter, C, shape and scale. I can’t see the subtitle after that, what is it?

2:02 Chris Dyer : What counts each shape and scale? What counts?

2:05 Jim Beach : There you go. Yes. He is also the author of two other books, one called the power of company culture and one called remote work. He has won all sorts of awards, five times, top 5000 CEO, three times, Best Selling Author, top global guru, etc, etc, a whole bunch of them. And he’s done hundreds of keynotes around the world at places like NASA Johnson and Johnson, IKEA, Southwest Airlines. Chris, welcome. How you doing?

2:36 Chris Dyer: I’m doing great. Thanks so much for the wonderful intro.

2:39 Jim Beach : Well, it’s your wonderful career. So I’m just picking out points that you know of your achievements. It’s not me, it’s you. So we do offer a service when, every time you go into a new room, I’ll introduce you like that, like the duxes of Sussex.

2:54 Chris Dyer : You know, there we go. Yeah, that’s great. I mean, it’ll take me a long time to get into a room, but I appreciate it. Yeah, it’ll

3:01 Jim Beach : Slow you. We even have add ons, like for certain rooms we can do, and world renowned lover Chris Dyer, whatever you need. So I love it. I love it. Why do you wear white glasses? Tell me about the brand mess of wearing white glasses.

3:19 Chris Dyer : Well, it originally started five years ago, when my grandson was born. I jokingly put on these giant glasses because both of my grandfathers wore those big, giant framed glasses that look like, you know, Harry Carey from the Cubs, the famed announcer, so I just put them on as a joke to take pictures, and everyone was, you know, not happy with me, but then I needed to wear readers around that same time I had gotten eye surgery, and so I started looking for some readers that I liked, and what I started to notice was that certain glasses would evoke a different reaction from people I didn’t know. Certain colors would give me attention. Certain colors would cause people to want to punch me in the face. Other others, you know, nobody cared about and so one day, when I put these white ones on, I was just trying out different colors, different things. I must have had six people come to me at the airport and say, Excuse me. Do I know you? Are you famous like, you know, there was this instant kind of gravitational pull. And for someone who’s a speaker, who, basically, I get put on a list of piece of paper of 10 other people who probably look a lot like me and talk a lot like me and all of that, it’s kind of hard to stand out. And so I thought, well, let’s give this a try. And it’s been really great. And I’ve been, it’s kind of fun to, I don’t know, put on a Superman costume at 40 back then at 45 and now 50 and have kind of a new persona and a new new way to kind of navigate life. It’s been fun.

4:53 Jim Beach : You were a grandfather at 45

4:56 Chris Dyer : I Yeah, so my wife and I cheated a little bit. We adopted three kids from Russia. Uh, my daughter was almost 10 when we adopted her. So, you know, if I told you I was a grandfather at 55 or 60, you might be like, Well, that makes sense. So we kind of cheated a little bit.

5:11 Jim Beach : Yes, well, you’re allowed to do that. You have white Superman glasses. All right, fantastic. I love that. That is a great answer, and I think it makes a lot of sense, and here we are talking about it. So obviously it works. Tell us about your new book, please. Moments that matter.

5:33 Chris Dyer : Well, I sold my largest company back at the end of 2021 and I kind of went through a little period of time where, you know, I didn’t know what to do with myself. I had been for 20 years. You get these habits right. Of like, you check these reports, you meet with these people, you do these things. And here I was 20 years of, you know, my habits weren’t serving me anymore, and I’m trying to figure out what to do. And started speaking and doing all those consulting and those kinds of things. And years later, I ended up having dinner with two old employees, and after a keynote where they told me that, essentially, they were mad at me for selling the company, and they had done really well. They had gotten promoted. They were making more money, they bought their dream homes. I mean, if you looked at them on paper, you’d say me, selling the company was the best thing that ever happened to them, and yet they were mad at me, and when I dug a little deeper, it was really what they talked about, what they said they were missing, or the thing that they were longing for. In what they called the good old days, were the moments. There were the big things that we did together, the big accomplishments, the big problems, the ways we stepped up for employees when they were having a challenge. It wasn’t the day to day consistency. I realized that probably every business book I’ve ever read was talked about being consistent, talk about having a methodology and processes and repeatable things, and they were telling me what they remembered was the big moments we got right. And so that sent me down the path to write this book, and I think it’s really been resonating with people because it’s a it’s a more practical and I think more realistic way to navigate any part of your life, whether that’s work or personal.7:21 Jim Beach : All right, yeah. So I think we all have moments like that that we remember. Mine have a lot to do with fire and buildings burning down and stuff like that. And unfortunately, are these moments of corporate success, personal success, having babies, getting married, or are these more that time we made that presentation in Las Vegas and got that customer?

7:49 Chris Dyer : Yeah, it’s all of it, right? I mean, there and so there are seven different moment types. There are first moments. So maybe, you know, someone’s first day on the job, how did we treat them? How do we act? What do we do? Maybe it was that time that we all came together and figured out a way to land that giant client. We’re also moments where, you know, we did, we showed up for our employees when they lost someone in their family. It wasn’t really important, very pivotal moment for their family’s life. And so the company, we tried to show up for them in very particular ways. You know, maybe it was. I remember my two employees that I talked to you about before they brought up the time that you know, all of our Texas employees, almost all of them, had lost their power back in the remember those big winter storms, horrible and and they had all lost their power, and they could not find generators. And so I live in Orange County, California, there were plenty of generators at my home depot. So we went around, got a U haul truck, got all the generators we could get, hired a college kid to drive them out to Texas and drop them off to every employee, doubt

8:57 Jim Beach : And illegal, you

8:58 Chris Dyer : Know, well, let’s not talk about that, but you know, so we got them all what they needed, and then we said to them, now, go take two weeks off and go help your community. So we didn’t send them generators so that they could come back to work. We didn’t send them generators they could get back to their computers and make us more money, right? We did that to help them and to help their families and help their communities and and to them that that was the kind of moment we showed up for our employees. And I know our Texas employees appreciated that, and they remember that, but it also created psychological safety for all of my other employees around the country, because they knew if they knew if they were ever in trouble, we were going to show up for them too. And so that’s, I think, how we leverage moments, right? Is that we make sure that we we see it, we make sure we do something that’s the shape, and then we make sure that other people know about it, so that they feel safe. They know who we are, they know how we’re going to operate, how we’re going to act in a certain situation, so that. Have that psychological safety as well, and that’s the scale part.

10:02 Jim Beach : Tell us about the marble jar lie.

10:07 Chris Dyer : Well, the marble jar lie. It started allude to a little bit is that we are told that if we are consistent, everything will be fine if we just show up and we, you know, we do the right thing all the time. We put a little marble into a jar every day I’m your boss, and I show up and I pat you on the head or whatever. And your every day, you show up, and you’re always on time, and you do the tasks I asked you to do. That’s the equivalent of putting a little marble into a jar. And we’re sort of told that that’s all we have to do. But the problem is, is that when something big happens, you know, if you show up on time every single day, but all of a sudden you don’t show up on the biggest day of your career, when the client is expecting you to the giant presentation and we lose a $5 million deal. I don’t really care that you were on time the other 500 days in a row, right? That those one all those 500 days don’t wipe out the fact that you just didn’t show up for work on the biggest day of your career, so that marble jar can be shattered at any moment. And that’s why I really want people to think more about their lives as it relates to the big moments. We’re told time and time again, don’t sweat the small stuff, but the next sentence after that is you better be ready to take advantage of and you better show up for the big stuff. That those are the big moments. That’s what really matters.

11:28 Jim Beach : Okay? And you said there’s seven moments, seven categories of moments, should we go through that?

11:35 Chris Dyer : Sure we certainly can. I started with the first one, which is the I call Inception moments, and those are first days, first things. Then there’s transition moments, that’s how you go from one thing to the next. Maybe you’re going to promotion, maybe you’re going to leave one job, go to another job. There’s decision moments, that’s where we make mistakes, where we try new things, or things going on. Then there is recognition moments. So are we, you know, taking that time to tell someone good job or to realize we’ve accomplished something? There’s connection moments, when, how do we, you know, make that connection someone that first impression? How do we, you know, go into that job interview and get that job? There’s truth moments. How do we tell someone something they need to hear? Or maybe, how do we take that truth? How do we hear from somebody else when they tell us something we need to know and understand? And then there’s culmination moments, which is, you know, something ended, but now something new is going to is going to start. And probably heard that phrase. You know, sometimes when one door closes, another one opens, and that’s a culmination moment. It’s been some really good ones the news recently, but those are the seven

12:53 Jim Beach : Excellent some immediate examples jump into my mind for some of the categories. I certainly don’t have a culmination example in the news recently. What’s that?

13:05 Chris Dyer : So you may have heard of a little guy named Stephen Colbert Whose show is being canceled and he’s being taken off the air. And you look at his career as a funny guy, he’s been very successful, whether you’re a fan of his or not, you know. And here he is ending his career, not on his terms. I mean, he’s being taken off the air by his employer. And if you know anything about him, he is the biggest nerd as anyone has ever been about the Lord of the Rings. This guy is probably one of the top five people in the world that knows about everything there is to know about Lord of the Rings. I mean, him and Peter Jackson are number one, number two, and he is now going to be writing the next Lord of the Rings movie. And so, out of this moment where his career has ended on TV, he is now going his career

13:54 Jim Beach : Has ended his show, but you’re proving that the career goes on.

13:59 Chris Dyer : Sure, exactly. I mean, it’s a better, a better phrasing. His show has ended, right? Or is maybe his? Maybe his career on TV is pause. But here he’s leaving the thing he’s been doing. His door has closed, and here now, out of that, like a phoenix rising out of the ashes, here he gets to do something. It’s probably the thing he would have chosen to do his whole life that he never got, would never have gotten to do. And so that’s a culmination moment right where he’s going to go from this famed career to suddenly doing the the one, the one thing that he probably would have loved to have done more than anything else that maybe would have never been able to do.

14:39 Jim Beach : So is he going to write, like volume four. What happens after the ring is destroyed, or is it prior to the ring being destroyed? Chris, do you know that little detail that I

14:50 Chris Dyer : Don’t know? So I don’t I don’t know if I don’t know because I didn’t read far enough in the article, or because I just haven’t announced it. Maybe they just said he’s going to write the next thing, and they haven’t called. I figured that out yet. So all I know is that him and Peter Jackson are working together and kind of write the next one. Okay.

15:06 Jim Beach : I mean, I’ll go see it, no matter what it is. So a lot of people are like that, I bet. All right. So are any of these other moment categories? Do we need to dive deep into any of them or tell a story so we remember them better.

15:23 Chris Dyer : Chris, I mean, yeah, we probably, I think we went through them pretty well. You know, it’s, I think that the big thing is for people again, remind you to first see it, to make sure that once you see it and you realize something’s happening, that’s when you got to figure out which of the seven to do. And if you if you didn’t catch them all, if you need a list, you can also go to Chris Dyer comm slash moments. And that’s, there’s a free worksheet there, and we’ll give you all the moments. Of course, you can buy the book and all that, but there’s a free resource there for anybody you’d like to go a little deeper.

15:56 Jim Beach : And the book has just tons of examples. So for decision moments. There are, I don’t know, 20 examples, 15 examples that you could look at that are each cute little stories in and of themselves. So Exactly, yeah, so there’s a lot more in the book about each one of those. So are these moments, obviously, you say you want us to see and notice them. Should we also try to create them in our lives, in our corporate lives? I mean, when we try to have a wedding engagement, or when you ask a girl to marry you, you try to do it up so that everyone talks about it correctly.

16:41 Chris Dyer : Yeah. I mean, so you bring up, like, saying a wedding or proposal or something, I think we, we naturally know that’s a moment. Those ones feel a little bit more obvious. But you know, maybe, maybe there’s something else inside of of that moment, you might think about, well, how, how does you and that other person getting engaged? Impact their family, impact their friends, impact some other part of their life. And is there that might be an interesting thing to think about, you know, how will that affect other people in both of your lives? And is there anything you should do about that you know? Should should you go and talk to their parents and ask their permission? Should you, you know? Is there something else to do that will make that moment more important, more more impactful, and cause you more happiness in the future, right? Or demonstrate you know again who you are. So whenever that moment happens, that’s when you need to think about what you need to do. How do you need to traverse that time period. Now to your question, can you go and create moments? Of course, you can go and try to create moments for yourself, and that comes from hard work and all the things that we’re trying to do in our careers and things like that. I think those feel a little bit more natural for most people. Most of what I’m suggesting in the book is for us to be more aware of what’s happening and to notice that a moment is happening, or notice what is maybe going on with some other person, and trying to then step in to help out, to help as best we can, or to recognize when something’s happening to us as a way to cope with that and come out better on the other side. So for most of the time, it’s about being more aware than it is to necessarily try to artificially

18:24 Jim Beach : Create something. Okay, let’s pull back a little bit. Chris, talk to us about establishing company culture. Do I start when employee two comes? Employee 10, employee 50? When do I start building my culture? And how do I do that? How do I make it a happy place that people want to work? Who’s ball for everybody?

18:47 Chris Dyer : Yeah, so culture is really about being very particular about who we are and how we want to work. So, you know, you got one other employee that that’s pretty obvious, but it’s pretty hard to do a whole lot there. But as you begin to get more and more employees, it will become more and more important. And so you need to think about being very intentional again, to ask that question, who are we? What is it that? What are the things that we do, and what are the things that we don’t do as a company or as human beings working in a place together, and to have those conversations. I think as the CEO, the owner of the company, it is up to you to set that expectation. Is up to you to communicate that and to create that vision. And then it’s secondarily, your job to facilitate the conversations around that, to get everyone else’s input and ideas on how do we create that space, and how do we make that environment work in a way that honors what the owner wants out of the organization at the same time for the people who were there trying to execute on that and one of the biggest places that you can find where culture lives or. Dies is in meetings. And so you know, if in the average meeting, the things that you care about are being happening, and the things that you don’t want to happen are definitely not happening, you’re doing pretty well. But in every organization I’ve ever been brought into where they say, Chris, we need your help, our culture is not working. Our people are unhappy. I just go into random meetings and I just, I find all the worst behaviors, and I find that they’re not living out what they say they care about. And in like, you know, Tuesday’s stand up meeting. So it’s not like it’s in the big deals, it’s like in the average little things, they’re just not even thinking about how they talk to each other, how they treat each other. In my other book, I’ve got the seven pillars. There’s some very specific things that you need to think about, like transparency and positive leadership and recognition and listening. But on a very simple level, it starts with just identifying who we are and who we’re not,

20:54 Jim Beach : All right, and when I start to build a culture, do we write it down? Do we have culture definition meetings, that sounds like sort of the definition of Hell yeah, yeah.

21:08 Chris Dyer : That’s why I wrote the book, to really try to help people understand. What is it you need to do to like, at least be good and you do need to write out, maybe your value statement, your customer service statement, to write down some of the things you care about. Now maybe that’s not asking everyone to do that, but maybe the owner, or maybe the senior level team, needs to write down some of those things so that we agree to them and we know what they are. But then the way in which you actually execute that is by looking at those seven pillars and saying, How can we be radically transparent if we want people to make good decisions. If we want them to understand why we’re doing what we’re doing. They want them to know, you know, hey, this is, this is our value. State is what we care about. These are the, these are the five words we put up on a wall of a conference room, like, but what are we doing to actually serve that? And that’s what transparency comes into play. You know? Are we? Are we actually celebrating people when they make mistakes? Are we actually like telling them, you know, good job that they tried something and it didn’t work, and then sharing that around the organization and kind of learn from it and figure out how to help each other? So there’s all these ways to do it to your point, that’s not like living in hell, but is much more pliable and much more fun and much more a part of creating an environment. So ultimately, what you’re trying to do when you’re trying to create a culture, trying to create a good culture or a great culture. So this is the question that I always care about, am I creating the best place that my people will ever work? That’s it, that is, that

22:40 Jim Beach : Is what our starting part standard. But I like that line, right?

22:44 Chris Dyer : That’s my North Star. Like, if you, if you work for me, and you ever, you ever decide to leave, I want you to regret it, not because I’m mean or I’m, you know, I’m, I’m upset, you laugh, but like,

22:56 Jim Beach : I don’t want your life hell,

22:59 Chris Dyer : I just don’t want the grass to be greener on the other side. I don’t want it to be any better. I’m going to create the best place you’re ever going to work. And I had employees who left, who, after six months or a year, came back and said, I’m really sorry I left. I don’t know what I was thinking. If it was ever a position open, I would love to come back. We used to call them boomerangs. We had boomerang employees and boomerang clients, and, you know, people that just didn’t realize how good they had it. And that’s that’s the standard that I’m trying to create.

23:26 Jim Beach : I love it. I love it. Chris, how do we find out more? Follow you online. Get a copy of the book.

23:33 Chris Dyer : Go to Amazon right now. Look for moments that matter. That’s easy way to do it, or again. Chris, tire, Comm, slash moments. There’s lots of resources. Links to the book. If you’d like to connect with me on social I’m on all of the social media platforms, the Tiktok, the Instagram, LinkedIn, all that. So find me. There will be a friend, follower, whatever the terminology is. They’re happy to connect with anybody. And lastly, if you’d like some free resources, you can text 33777, and just put my name Chris as the message, and it will immediately send you back free PDF on how to help your culture make your meetings better and all that.

24:12 Jim Beach : Fantastic, Chris. Thank you so much for being with us, and congratulations on the book. I hope it sells well for you, and we’d love to have you back. Thanks a lot. Thank you, and we’ll be right back.

24:35 Jim Beach : We are back and again. Thank you so very much for being with us. Very excited to introduce another great guest, please welcome Dr Carl Haven straight to the show. He is a PhD in a lot of other letters too, but he’s a certified executive coach, a multi award winning author, international speaker and a leadership consultant. He specializes in the. Graham, and we will have him explain that. I think you’ve seen it, the little pictures that explain our personality. And he has devoted his career to working with those. He has several books out taking care of business, with the Enneagram, the how and why, then also explicit expectations, The Essential Guide and toolkit of management fundamentals. Carl, welcome to the show. How you doing today?

25:27 R. Karl Hebenstreit : I’m doing very well. Jim, thank you for that wonderful introduction.

25:31 Jim Beach : How do you know? Did you put it on an engram to know that you’re doing well today?

25:36 R. Karl Hebenstreit : It’s just the energy. It’s all the energy around you and in you. So I mean, I guess it’s part of that is the Enneagram, but part of it is just making sure that you’re you’re making sure that you’re accessing all of the energies within you to show up the way you

25:47 Jim Beach : Need to. Alright, so explain the Enneagram to the people who don’t know what it is,

25:52 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Absolutely it’s an old, ancient system that is originally intended for Spiritual Development and has been really used since the 1970s for people to get into popular culture and self development, but also into organizations, because people have realized the value of understanding this system that really talks about motivations. Most of the other personality systems that are out there talk about behaviors, but they don’t talk about why we exhibit these behaviors, and that’s what you get answered through the Enneagram to identify what your core motivation is. There are one of nine that has been with you since childhood and will continue to be with you for your entire life. It’s what guides your behaviors, what guides your decision, making, your actions, your reactions, everything like that. It’s all based on your core motivation that basically, you were born with and got deeply embedded in you in your childhood. So it’s a combination of nature and nurture.

26:49 Jim Beach : Oh, very interesting. I love that conversation. So what are these core motivations? We’re born with them. We are

26:59 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Yeah, we’re wired. We’re wired towards the way that we perceive the world, and then something happens, and it’s totally baked into us at that point, when we have our whatever people sometimes call it, their childhood trauma, or whatever their origin story is, and how that’s baked into us. So there are nine of them that probably the easiest way to describe them is to do them in groups of three, because you can also think of them as styles and each human being. I’m sure you’re aware that you’ve seen all the literature in the books about you know you need head, heart and gut. We are complete human beings because we do access and balance our head, heart and our gut. So there are three of these, these motivations and styles that are related to our head or our thinking. There are three that are related to our heart or our feeling, and there are three that are related to our body, that are action. And if you think about, if you play along with me, Jim, you can figure out which one of these is most applicable to you. When you think about you, to pick one in each of these categories. And then maybe we’ll figure out what your core motivation is from from the final three. All right, so if you think about when you access your thinking and the different thinking styles that exist out there. There are some people who are very, very logical, very rational. Think about like, maybe data, or Mr. Spock from the enterprise, the Star Trek series, right? So they’re very logical. They take in all the information, they look at it, they make sense out of it. They create models and frameworks that make sense of things, and they’re very objective in their ability to analyze that and predict how things are going to likely to happen, so they can be ready and not look foolish. So that’s the type five, which is the observer or analyst. Other people are going to look at, taking in information, but looking at it from a danger perspective. What is the most dangerous thing? What is likely to happen that can derail us. How can we prepare for that derailleur so that we will be successful, but we’ll be safe, comfortable and secure, and that is the type six, the loyal skeptic is asking lots of questions that they can feel safe and secure and find their tribe that will back them up. So again, the five is the observer or analyst, and is very objective. The six is the loyal skeptic, and looking at things from a worst case scenario perspective and coming up with these backup or contingency plans to prepare for it. And then we have the opposite of that, which is the seven, which is totally not looking at the painful or negative things and reframing everything into a positive way, what’s possible, what opportunities exist. That is our Epicure, our adventure, our enthusiast that’s always looking at the bright side of things and what is possible. So between those three options, between the the logical one, between the worst case scenario planner and between the best case scenario planner. Which one would you choose?

29:35 Jim Beach : Jim, I think I’m a best case scenario

29:39 R. Karl Hebenstreit : All right, so that would be the type seven for your thinking style. Now that may or may not be your core motivation, but let’s dive deeper. Now we’re going to access our hearts. So when we feel, when we access our feeling, our heart center as human beings, there are some types that are always externally focused, not necessarily paying attention to their own needs, but always. Focused on other people’s needs. Those are the helpers, the givers, the people pleasers, always looking to meet other people’s needs before their own. And that’s the type two. There are others, which is a type three, which is really about saying, yeah, yeah, I get these feelings that I get there, they’re okay, but you know, there’s going to get in the way of me getting things done. So I’m going to deal with feelings later, and I’m going to pursue the goals that I’m meant to achieve. And so they’re really focused on the goals and not necessarily paying attention to feelings until they have to, although they know that they’re there and they do feel, of course, they feel. And those are our achievers or performers. That’s the type three, the last one, the type four, is all about empathically feeling everyone’s feelings, their own feelings, and everyone else’s feelings, and internalizing all those feelings. And there’s a lot of those with our artists, our romantics, are deep feelers. So those are the three different ways of accessing the heart center or the feeling center. And between those three, which one of those would you like to choose? The externally focused one, which is the people pleaser, the one that’s saying great feelings are fantastic, yeah, let’s deal with them later, and let’s get things done. Or the one that says, I feel therefore I am okay.

31:17 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Did you which one of those most appeals to you?

31:19 Jim Beach : Jim, I feel, therefore I am

31:23 R. Karl Hebenstreit : All right. So we’re going to go with that one. That’s type four. Okay, the very last part, body center, part of the Enneagram, is the gut or Action Center. And so there are people who immediately take action. They will see something needs to be done. They’re going to jump in and do it. Maybe do it through others. They’ll delegate it, but they’ll get it done. They’ll take control, and they will get this thing done, and then if they have to change it later on, that’s fine, that it’s a different direction, but action is so important, and they just need to jump in and do it and execute on it. And that’s the type eight, which is the boss, the protector, the general, the director, the controller. So then we also have some people who might look at it and say, Hold on a second. If we take action too fast, we’re going to rock the boat, and unfortunately, that’s going to create conflict. And we really do need to avoid conflict at all costs. We want everyone’s inclusion. We want a democratic process for everyone to contribute to the solution. And then we’re going to take action if we have to absolutely necessary, but we don’t want to rock the boat. We don’t want great conflict, and those are peacemakers or mediators. And then the third way of taking action is taking action, but putting it through the lens of what is the right thing to do in this situation? What do my morals, my values, my ethics, what did they say is the right thing? Are there rules and players that would dictate what is the right thing to do in this situation? Let’s do that. Let’s put them through that filter first, and we’ll take action that way. So that are those are our perfectionists or reformers? So if you had to pick which one of those ways you are most likely to take action, is it the direct, immediate action of the type eight? Which is the boss protector or general boss? Oh, it is eight. Okay, we got that one, all right. So between those three. So now you’ve selected your three different styles of which way you think, which way you feel, which way you take action. One of those is likely to be your core motivation. So you’re between those three. Are you most motivated by making sure that you are have the freedom and autonomy to do whatever you need to do in the situation and to avoid pain or do Are you motivated by making sure that you feel like you’re unique, special and different and genuine and authentic in all situations? Or are you motivated by having power control and authority and being able to protect the people that are in your inner circle.

33:49 Jim Beach : Number eight, again, the the

33:50 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Last All right. So there you go. So out of that quick little exercise, we likely selected, or you likely selected, which is your core Enneagram type Now, not everyone leaves with type eight, right? We mentioned that there were those eight other styles a total of nine. And when we get into trouble is when we think that everyone is leading from that same perspective or the same motivation of type eight. And sometimes we need to take a step back and say, Hold on a second. People are leading through a different lens. They’re looking at a different perspective. They have a different motivation. They’re engaged differently. So I have to treat them differently in order to get the best out of them, because I might not be acting in a way that is conducive to getting the best out of them, or for them to feel as comfortable in being able to provide the best that they possibly can. And they need all nine of those insights or energies or motivations in order to get the full picture of what’s really going on around us in whatever situation it is. That’s really the gist of the Enneagram, and ultimately, it’s to integrate all nine of those perspectives that we do have access to, because you did have some difficult times selecting. Between a couple of them, right? You were saying maybe it was this one, but then you landed on one. So you saw that you had all nine of these within you, maybe not all at the same level or accessibility, but all nine are within you. So it’s how do we make sure that we’re addressing some of those underutilized or under Access types and insights and perspectives and motivations or ways of looking at the world, so that we’re sure to get the full picture of the world and be the most effective in all all types of relationships and situations.

35:34 Jim Beach : Yeah, so now that I know this, that I’m bossy, what do I do with that?

35:41 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Well, that’s a great question, and thank you for being ready to take that on, because a lot of everything’s about readiness. When someone’s ready to ask that question, I know that they’re ready to also do some of the work with it. So it’s just understanding that you’re going to come across with a lot of energy, a lot of energy and a lot of power that may intimidate people, even though that may not be your intention. Sometimes it will be your intention, but in most cases, it’s not your intention to intimidate people, especially the people that are close to you. So it’s to understand and really take a look around you and see how people are responding to you. And when you start seeing people maybe backing up a little bit or quieting down, or maybe you’re taking up space through through speaking and just to step back and give them a chance to speak or ask them about their opinion, or just, you know, step back yourself, just to dampen it, dampen all that, that energy that you have, that you just approach everything with. And it’s a wonderful thing. It’s a huge strength. It’s a wonderful talent to have that. And it can also become a weakness if you overuse it, because it intimidates people all the time, especially when you don’t intend for it to then you’re not going to get accomplished if you want to get accomplished or come across the

36:46 Jim Beach : Way you want to. Yeah, I do intimidate people. I know that. I thought it was because of my luscious good

36:52 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Looks that. Well, those, again, those are not mutually exclusive. That could also be part of it too.

37:01 Jim Beach : And so how do I use this to be nicer to people, and how do I know what their personality set is and how I should respond to them according to what their personality is?

37:14 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Help I have bad news for you in that area, Jim, you’re gonna have to talk to them. You’re gonna have to, I know, I know it’s difficult. It’s part of being human. You’re gonna have to sit down and have a heart to heart, one to one conversation to figure out, what is it that motivates them, how do they want to be approached? How do, what is the best way to engage them? Having that conversation, and it’s a two way conversation, because you’re obviously going to be sharing. Going to be sharing how you want to be approached and how you like to be communicated with as well. So it’s just having that conversation you get all those explicit expectations out, but your expectations are of them, but their expectations are of you. How you can work together. You are not going to, I can guarantee you’re not going to agree on every single point, especially in which styles you are, because it’s very highly likely that people that you’re working with are not going to be, are not going to have those 748, energies that you came up with for yourself, right? They’re going to have, I don’t know. They might have a a, 521, energy. And so knowing what that means and how to work best with them, and understand that they are there to work with you. They want to work with you. It’s just that the alignment needs to be arranged through a conversation, so that you understand where you’re going to be aligned and where you’re likely to be misaligned, and how do you get back into alignment, knowing that the person is not trying to keep things from you, knowing that they’re not trying to be intrusive or evil, or that they have it out for you. It’s just that it’s a different style, and they’re looking for something different. And once you under uncover that, then you’re going to find out exactly how easy it is to work with them, and they’re going to know how easy it is to work with you, because they’re going to understand where you’re coming from, and you’re going to understand where they’re coming from. And you have a language and mutual language to discuss this, rather than saying, I don’t know why this person’s behaving the way they’re behaving, or where they’re coming from, all these

39:10 Jim Beach : Companies that have tests like this is part of the application process. How do I handle that when this is part of the application process? I don’t know really what they’re going yeah, do I just do it legit, or do I hate myself in a different way?

39:29 R. Karl Hebenstreit : So I would be very, very careful. Mary with a company that does this as part of the hiring process, because it’s unethical and illegal. So we can’t hire based on a personality. What we can do is, after we hire a person based on the skill set that they have and the likelihood that they’re going to fit into the organization based on the interviews that we have, then we identify, well, okay, what is your core motivation and how do we work with it that way? Ideally, we don’t want to have group things so we don’t. Want to hire everyone in the organization that thinks exactly the same way, feels exactly the same way, and thinks the action exactly the same way. You are going to miss out on key stakeholders, key customers that think differently and need different things from you, and the company will likely fail. So we do want the diversity of all these nine different types and access to those nine different types, and even if we don’t end up hiring nine core different motivations in our employees, because that happens a lot of times, and in for profit organizations a lot of times, we don’t see the type four be a core motivation in a for profit organization, because they’re all about wanting purpose and authenticity, and they go for the nonprofits and the arts, right? But we still need that energy within the organization and that insight, because that gives us the creativity and the authenticity and the attachments and mission. So even if we don’t have someone who displays the core motivation type that we’re looking for, they will still have access to it, because it may be part of their triadic style, which is what we came up with, the three different styles that you have in each of those different triad areas, the heart, the head and the duck, or you’re going to have access to it regardless, because we have all nine within us. So it’s how do we figure out what we are unlikely to be able to access? We can do an assessment afterwards and see we’re low in type four, we’re low in type six and low, whatever the energy that we’re low in. And how do we make sure that we don’t fall victim to failing because we’re not paying attention to these insights that those energies bring. So that’s really how we use it. We should not be using it upfront in a hiring process for bringing in people into the organization, only after they’re in the organization.

41:43 Jim Beach : So if someone tells me that they need to do that as part of the application, should I say that’s illegal? What should I do?

41:49 R. Karl Hebenstreit : You can ask them, Why could you? Could you tell me why this? How this pertains to the the job, the essential the performance of the essential functions of the job, because that’s what’s legal. That’s the actual legal question is any question you’re asking an interview is supposed to be to determine and identify how you how you are able to perform the essential functions of the job, and doing a personality test may not or will not be part of that.

42:18 Jim Beach : Okay, interesting. I’m going to call that company up, give them my mind.

42:23 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Yeah, you do that. That’s actually a good usage of the eight, because you do have that assertiveness and being able to call that out, especially if it’s an injustice. And eights

42:34 Jim Beach : Are really good at that. And so how do I use this to make myself happier or better. It seems like I need to curtail the eight a little bit. Guardrails, yes,

42:48 R. Karl Hebenstreit : And it’s all situational, right? Sometimes you have to go full eight in some situations, and sometimes you have to draw the eight back in another situation. So it’s really reading the room, reading the situation, seeing is my default way of looking at this and taking action on this. The appropriate way to do that in this situation. Or do I need to approach it from one of the other eight different lenses or energies or perspectives? That’s really what it is. And first, I mean, the first part of anything is self awareness. And you just got that, right? You just got the self awareness that, oh, I lead with this eight energy, which is very helpful in many situations and can be detrimental in others, because other people feel intimidated. We may not be getting the full impact of other people’s inclusion of their opinions and their perspectives, which could be actually proved to be a different direction that we go in, rather than the one I immediately want to take. And Ace are usually really good at saying, oh, yeah, that’s a good other way of looking at it. That’s the way we should be going. Because if they take immediate action and they see that that’s not yielding the right results, then they’ll usually say, Okay, we need to detour. We need to change direction. Let’s do this differently, because we’re not getting what we need to be but it’s always about moving forward in action for them, and sometimes it’s really taking the step now you’re right next to the eight is right next to the type nine, right? And the type nine is that mediator, Peacekeeper energy, which is all about putting the brakes on and saying, Hold on, let’s look at the whole system. Let’s look at the whole situation before we immediately jump into action. So it’s tapping into that nine energy for you as well.

44:23 Jim Beach : And can I change this if I don’t like something about myself, I don’t want to be as eight as I am, can I modify this over time and change my personality?

44:35 R. Karl Hebenstreit : You won’t change your core motivation, your core motivation stays your core motivation for life, but you can change your behaviors, and you can change the way you look at things, and all it takes is pause and focus. So knowing this about yourself, you can now say, Hold on a second. I know I want this immediate jumping in and taking action thing, but is there a better way? Let me stop and really look at the whole situation before immediately taking action. Interaction. So it’s really taking that pause to make sure you’re not automatically responding to something based on your wiring, right? Because this is all based on our wiring. But it’s to also say I have access to these other underutilized energies and perspectives that are within me, but I’m not paying attention to them. Let me start focusing on them too to say if they have some additional insight that would make me even more effective in this situation, or would make the situation make even more sense.

45:28 Jim Beach : What am I allowed to do as a boss with this type of information? So after they’re hired, I give them a test with what goal.

45:38 R. Karl Hebenstreit : It’s team building. It’s self awareness for yourself, self awareness for each of the team members. Then it’s empathy for so you be empathizing with the way that they are looking at the world and their needs, then you know how to motivate them, because not everyone’s gonna be motivated by what you’re motivated by. And that even comes down to like, Is it money? Is it more time off? Is it more opportunity to learn? Is it opportunity to be involved in, in with customers? More is it, you know? What is it? Because each different person is going to come at it from something that’s more important to them than just the money or the power or the control or the authority, right? Which is what makes me more appealing for you. So so you can understand that, and then you can work with your team better. They can work better with each other, because when you share that as a team, then they understand where each one of them is coming from, and so they can also work better together and have better interpersonal relationships, and then ultimately integrating all of the strengths and insights that each of these different motivations and energies brings, and also taking into consideration the ones that are not present in the team, because there will be some, some, some that are not as present, again to me, usually type four and type six are not present in our in our for profit organizations. So how do we make sure that we space because extra special focus on that, since we know we’re going to just skip over it, how do we know that we don’t miss out on okay? How? What is the unique value that we add from the type four or for the type six? How do we make sure that we’re successful by taking into consideration some of the things that could go wrong. And how do we create some backup plans?

47:19 Jim Beach : It seems, though, that over time, I would want to get another four in the group. You know, it seems like I would, now that we have this information, try to direct the team to have a better mix.

47:33 Unknown Speaker : What makes you think the four wants to come onto your teams?

47:40 Jim Beach : Then? You know, they’re worthless piece of you know, I was the type of boss that always got very hurt when an employee left. Yeah, you know, that always hurt me. As a matter of fact, I had one who left, and about five years later, I ran into him at the mall, and I asked him why he left and he said it was because of you, Jim, you were constantly staring at me, and I was like, staring at you. Never once did I stare at you, yeah? But they felt that Yeah. It was Yeah, go ahead.

48:15 R. Karl Hebenstreit : No, unconsciously, right? So that’s their perception. So understanding where they’re coming from will also help with their perception, like so if you you glanced a couple times over, they might have fully internalized that and said, oh, something’s going on. Why is he looking at me, especially, and I’m just going to make this up, they may have been a type six, which is very skeptical, like, why is he looking at me? Why doesn’t he trust me? You know, that kind of thing. Or it could have been someone else who doesn’t want to feel like that. We could have been a type seven, who could have said, I Why is he trying to control me? Why is he always following up and looking at, you know, what I’m doing? I don’t I want to have more freedom. I don’t want to be in this micromanaging situation. And again, it’s their interpretation of it, not necessarily what you did

48:59 Jim Beach : Aware of that. Yes, the reality was I had gillion Baray and I was tripping, and so I was watching my feet all the time, and his desk was underneath that, you know, it was a two star in the balcony, and his desk was right underneath my door. And so I would come out of my office looking down, trying not to trip and fall on him when he thought staring at him,

49:23 Unknown Speaker : And did he know that? No,

49:24 Jim Beach : He did not know that until the mall when I told him five years later.

49:29 R. Karl Hebenstreit : And can I tell you an insight about type eight? Yes, type eights want to appear strong and invincible and are unlikely to share something that they feel is a recent and that is part of the vulnerability I

49:43 Jim Beach : Tell everyone about my illnesses, not at all, yeah, secretive about that, but

49:51 R. Karl Hebenstreit : That person was not aware of that, in that moment, right? Or in that situation. They were not aware of it. And ultimately, as type eights mature. Develop as we learn more and we have more experiences, we do understand the value of vulnerability and being open to people and sharing more. Yeah, apes can share a lot, but again, sometimes they don’t want to share some of the stuff that will make them seem weak, because they value strength in themselves and in others, sure.

50:23 Jim Beach : Of course, I value strength the hell wouldn’t

50:37 R. Karl Hebenstreit : The Jews can go to there. So the two actually have, I know you just picked that out of blue, right? Yeah, the twos actually do have a line to eight. And guess what? You have a line to two as well. So in your comfort, you actually become two. You take on some of the qualities of type two, which is very caring and very giving and just totally protective and giving to your inner circle. That’s what you see when you’re hurt and you have your inner circle, they experience you as a very different person than the rest of the world. The outside world does so people, believe it or not. People do this to pick their partners. They even the church, the church will actually do counseling to people who are about to get married, to let them, have them do the Enneagram and say, this is, you know, your types and what you’re going to need to learn to to get along better, to understand about each other, so that you don’t divorce unless you have a happy marriage. And there are some people out there that actually use that exercise that we just did with the triadic style to say that, for example, yours is 748, or starting with eight, it’s 874, if you found a partner who led with type seven or LED four and also had that eight energy in it, they don’t necessarily have to be a type eight, but As long as they have eight in their chaotic style, right? They could the core motivation could be four or seven for you. Then you are most likely to be most compatible with them because you understand where you’re coming from, where each of you is coming from, even if the core motivation is different, but the styles in those three centers are the same. And then it gets even, even deeper. Jim, you can actually look at it from the standpoint of your instinct.

52:23 Jim Beach : Very interesting. Carl, we need to wrap it up. How do we find out more? Get in touch. Follow you online, get a copy of your book.

52:29 R. Karl Hebenstreit : Yeah. So I am available through my website, which is www, dot per form and function.com. So to play on words form and function, but it’s per form and function.com I am on LinkedIn with our Carl hebenstreit, which is Carl with a K and heavens, H, E, D, E, N, S, T, R, e, i, c, my books are on Amazon and also through Ingram Spark. It’s the how and why, taking care of business with the Enneagram. It’s also explicit expectations, the essential toolkit and guide for management fundamentals. And there’s also a children’s book, if you’re interested in helping your children have a better life starting from an earlier age and don’t have to learn this later on in life. It’s Nina and the really, really tough decision. And there’s a new book about to come out too. It’s called fully functional that should be out by the end of the year. I’m really excited about that as well, and I do keynote speeches about motivation and engagement and really understanding accessing all these different energies that we have within us that we go underutilized now to be even more effective. Looking forward to hearing from you.

53:37 Jim Beach : Thank you so very much, and we’d love to have you back. Thanks a lot. Great information.

53:41 Unknown Speaker : Thank you, Jim, have a great rest of your day.

53:44 Jim Beach : We’re out of time, but back tomorrow, be safe, take care, go make a million dollars by now you.