October 5, 2026 – EdTech Find Your Grind Nick Gross and Bankruptcy Attorney Barry Levine

00:04 INTRO 1: In the AM, radio network, broadcasting from AM and FM stations around the country. Welcome to the Small Business Administration Award-winning School for Startups Radio, while we talk all things small business and entrepreneurship. Now, here is your host, the guy that believes anyone can be a successful entrepreneur, because entrepreneurship is not about creativity, risk or passion, Jim Beach.

00:22 Jim Beach: Hello, everyone, welcome to another exciting edition of School for Startups Radio. So excited to be with you today. Thanks for spending some time with us. We have an absolutely fantastic show today. First up, we have Nick Gross. He’s had an amazing career, started off on one of the MTV shows, one of those live situational shows at 17, and it’s turned that into an amazing career as an artist, a musician, and also a very successful entrepreneur. His company is called Find Your Grind. Oh, I’m sorry, maybe it’s gross. I think he has both. Gross Labs and Find Your Grind. It’s really impressive. We’re going to enjoy hearing from him. After that, we have bankruptcy attorney Barry Levine. I hope we never need him, but we got to get ready sometimes, and we’re just going to go out there and learn everything we can, right? So that we won’t need Barry. Anyway, it’s a great show. Thanks for being with us. By the way, both interviews have been shortened because they were both too long, too great. Go to the website and click on the longer version and you will get that. Of course, it’s only a $1,000. It’s all free. Let’s get started. Here we go. Very excited to introduce our 1st entrepreneur today. This is an amazing story. I just love it.

01:43 Jim Beach: Please welcome Nick Gross to the show. He burst through and became famous when he appeared on MTV’s Laguna Beach, his band, Open Air Stereo, was appearing there, and they had a huge success from it. At the age of 17. He started touring the world, signed a record deal with Sony Epic, and went out with acts like Avril Lavigne and Machine Gun Kelly. He was very active in the behind the scenes part too. He created a organiz- or a place called the Noise Nest, an LA recording studio and content facility. He also during this time founded something a lot more important, I think, related to us. Find Your Grind. It’s a new way for people to look at their lives and realize they don’t have to do what mom and dad said. This is not your dad’s Buick. You can go off and have your own career, do whatever you want. It’s been recognized in Fast Company as one of the brands that matter, and they just raised $5,000,000 in a series, A, round to accelerate growth. Pretty damn cool career. Nick, welcome to the show. How you doing?

02:53 Nick Gross: That is amazing. I mean, I would like to take that intro for every meeting and outing that I ever do. So I appreciate that. Everything is great. We’re doing awesome. I just got back from Mexico City this last weekend, uh, playing the Warped Tour down there, which was a lot of fun, um, and different place that I’ve never been to before, but we’re back on American soil today and glad to be on.

03:20 Jim Beach: Well, I do offer a service where I will record the introduction for you and even add in things like world renowned lover, Nick Gross, you know, anything you want, you know?

03:32 Nick Gross: Perfect.

03:33 Jim Beach: Okay, great. I’m here to make you look good. And I forgot part of it too, because you have your own private, like a company, a family company or a family fund, which has invested in the X Games, 100 Thieves, Breakaway Music Festival, BeatBox Beverages, some franchises, sport franchises. Another really cool thing you’re doing there as well. So we have a lot of stuff to cover, Nick.

03:59 Nick Gross: I know, I appreciate that. Yeah, never a dull moment in our world. So yeah, let’s jump in.

04:04 Jim Beach: So when did you realize that not only were you just different that the standard status quo, you know, the formal life that everyone else has put on wasn’t going to work for you. And then secondarily, when did you realize that you were going to be really successful in life and that you weren’t just another guy, that you were on the faster track. Two questions.

04:28 Nick Gross: Well, you know, 1st and foremost, I’m never going to make this about me. I appreciate it. Um, I have always, uh, kind of really tapped into the nature of of the wider positive energy that I try and put out to the universe and the frame of mind and physical and mental side of just showing up every day to what you do regardless of what you do, you know, feeling good and in a positive mental state to attract great things into your life. And so that’s why I feel like for me, you know, even as a as a young kid. I always kind of put myself in situations that I wanted to be in and how I kind of envisioned my life. And back in the day when I was 16, 17 years old in high school, I always wanted to be a musician and an artist and play big shows and go on tour and figure out my way in that world, which I really didn’t know a ton about other than the fact that I loved playing music and would do anything that it took to book our own shows and find our own managers and kind of be the day to day operator of that band business.

05:45 Nick Gross: And so I, you know, thankfully was signed to Sony Epic Records when I was 17 off the back of the MTV show, Laguna Beach, which we were kind of lucky enough to have come into our town at that time where I, where I grew up. But I think a lot of it definitely is this combination of, you know, when opportunity and preparation come together to create luck, right? And I feel like I’ve always tried to be as prepared as possible. And, you know, hopefully allow opportunity to show up at my front door, just by being in a positive mental state of kind of manifesting the direction I want to go. So that’s been a lot, I think, of my kind of short-lived career. Like I’m just constantly kind of curious and figuring things out along the way and and messing up a lot and, you know, finding, you know, being involved in different partnerships even when I was a young kid that weren’t the best people in my life.

06:48 Nick Gross: And you kind of figure things out as you go, but I think it’s just a matter of, of kind of left foot right foot, you know, taking the steps, going through it all, but, but kind of envisioning like the world is always working out for us, whether we like it or not, I think it’s just about tapping into that space mentally. And that’s really helped me through my business career and, um, music career and all this stuff that have kind of come to us naturally, right? Like a lot of the businesses that we work on at Gross Labs, which is my, uh, you know, family enterprise, family office, if you will, where we’re and, you know, investing in companies. We’re building out our own internal companies and we have a small philanthropic side of things that we do to support all that work as well. But a lot of that stuff has just been, um, So a lot of natural things that have happened in life, right? Like that I’ve kind of stumbled into that, um, were never forced. And so I’m a huge believer in that.

07:57 Jim Beach: Do you manifest as in having a board or is just positive mental attitude enough and knowing where you want to go and then putting yourself there?

08:07 Nick Gross: I think it’s I think it’s both. Like, an example for me as a teenager. I always used to sneak into Irvine Verizon Ampitheater here in my 10 minutes out of outside of my house in Irvine and would just go sit in the amphitheater at night and during the day and just like look out at all the seats and imagine myself in that situation one day. Um, I never learned that from anyone else. I just kind of naturally felt like that was what I wanted to go do and how I wanted to envision things and just being around those kind of environments that I imagined myself in one day. So that really helped, but then also, yeah, always was writing stuff down, like, you know, putting, putting plans in order and plans in place of how I wanted to kind of take, take action around certain things in my life. So that’s all been really helpful.

09:05 Jim Beach: I remember senior year of high school. I had a friend who was happened to be the valedictorian, and I asked him, what do you think about before the test? Because I was sitting there just getting nervous and, oh, like, I’m going to fail. I’m nervous and he looked pretty calmly, I envision getting the test back with a 99 at the top.

09:28 Nick Gross: Wow. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a test with a 99 back. Mine were always like below 50. So props to him.

09:36 Jim Beach: I was usually like 74.

09:38 Nick Gross: Yeah.

09:39 Jim Beach: Still, just the idea that I was sitting there worrying and getting myself up in a, you know, a horrible mental state and he was imagining 99s and becoming the valedictorian because of…

09:50 Nick Gross: There you go. There’s a great example.

09:53 Jim Beach: I find that very important. Tell me about Find Your Grind. I love this idea that not necessarily everyone needs to go to high school and take the SAT and go to college.

10:05 Nick Gross: Yeah, huge believer in that, right? We we all have different pathways and opportunities on on how we find our 1st careers and the things that we do in our life that don’t always have to go back to a college degree. I mean, I think we’re seeing less and less of the importance of how employers are hiring today, be having a college degree as a requirement. I think a lot of it so much is about, you know, skill set, um, you know, just a and more, I say, kind of fluidity to how young people think about their careers today versus what it used to be with our parents of, you know, older generation of had to get the perfect grades to go to the perfect college to, you know, get the perfect job, which equals the perfect life. And I think, um, we’re slowly seeing that that that doesn’t always uh, equate. Um, I think we’re seeing a lot of younger people shifting careers and things that they do every 24 months now. Um, it’s a very nonlinear world we live in today in terms of how, you know, um, the progression of people’s careers and um, the, the way that they find things for themselves. And so I have always been a believer in that. Like we need to bring…

11:26 Nick Gross: Kind of how fast the world is changing today. We need to bring that type of nature and environment into schools and really show where the future of work and the future of the world is evolving too, which is quicker and quicker every single week. And so unfortunately, a lot of what happens in the school system is much slower to adapt. So you’re seeing a lot of kids that are in school, kind of scratching their heads going, well, how am I, what I’m learning in school. How is that going to apply in a real world context to when I’m after school? And why am I learning what I’m learning? And how can I take what I’m learning and apply that to what the real world actually requires? Um, and so, uh, That, that’s been the fundamental belief behind Find Your Grind of what we do, Find Your Grind is a, is a EdTech business. So we, um, have developed, uh, you know, learning solutions for kids in K 12, um, all about self-discovery, career readiness, uh, and 21st century life skills. So we wrap a lot of these concepts into curriculum and various kind of tools, but then Find Your Grind that kids use to help them become more future ready.

12:44 Nick Gross: And we do the same for teachers, through professional development of helping teachers kind of get into the mindsets and the framework of how to talk about the future of the world to their students. Um, and that trickles down into the curriculum that students use and the experience that we provide for the kids. And so it’s just this really kind of fresh approach to education of like, how do we get kids more in the know and in the feeling of what the world’s actually going to be like when they exit school? Um, and I think a big part of that for us too is, it’s just a sense of self-awareness, of like identity with kids and making sure that they feel confident and self-aware in themselves, at least to the point of, you know, I know those things change a ton throughout a lifetime, but at least for the state of where, you know, kids’ interests and passions and, um, and goals kind of exist in that moment, especially in high school, what they’re thinking about. Like how can we kind of expose them to opportunities that are out there in the world, but give them a better sense of self-awareness so that they know the choices that they’re making and why they’re doing that, um, and why they’re interested in those things?

14:06 Nick Gross: And then helping them kind of map a plan after that of how they’re going to get there. So that’s, that’s been the core of Find Your Grind’s mission and like all this thing, this whole mission and company started through my recording studio in LA where I started bringing kids through my studio space to expose them to the music industry, um, that didn’t have the access or opportunity to, to know what it was like to be in music. And then from there, I started to film hundreds of different videos of people working in these alternative driven career pathways and entrepreneurs building their own businesses and having them share their of what that 1st 10% of their journey look like to really relate to a younger kid on, you know, this is how I got started. And this is what this business actually is and how we, how we operate this thing day to day and, um, and have them share their stories through content. And we amassed a ton of that, created a curriculum around that, actually traveled around the country speaking to kids in schools, um, and it was a great way for us to meet thousands of educators in schools around the country to kind of inform the future direction of our product roadmap and so on and so forth.

15:26 Nick Gross: So it’s been a really fun kind of organic journey with Find Your Grind. I was never forced, right? Like I was a college dropout that found my path really early on through music and what excited me. And I think that’s kind of the mission here is to like help every kid kind of identify with that early on to set them up with a direction that makes sense for them.

15:53 Jim Beach: You know, I went to one of the best high schools in the country. But at no point did they sit down and say, you know, what do you think you want to be when you grow up? You know, they said, let’s go get you into college, get you into college, get you into college. But, you know, I always thought about my passion was always architecture, and I would spend time with architecture books and drawings and stuff when I was a kid. And but I was always on a business path, I guess, because I also, you know, wanted to be the CEO of Coca-Cola. And I was really bummed that no one until I was 25 said, why aren’t you in architecture school? Isn’t that what you wanted to be? And it took until I was 25 to realize that I, that’s what I wanted to do. And so I finally got into architecture school, Nick, after so much turmoil, and it was becoming an entrepreneur at the same time and my entrepreneurial stuff grew so fast that I had to drop out of architecture school.

17:02 Nick Gross: There you go. Yep, that’s a perfect example of kind of finding your interest in your your lane of what excited you and, um, you know, pursuing that. And then, but it really took that person, right, to kind of help shift that mentality of how you should be thinking about that. So I think that’s what we’re trying to do.

17:24 Jim Beach: Very, very exciting. How did it start day one? It sounds like it kind of transitioned out, as you said, out of the LA film or music venue. How did it transition and become a real business on its own?

17:39 Nick Gross: Yeah, um, I reoriginally started as a nonprofit. Um, when we started doing things at my recording studio where we would partner with other nonprofits to bring kids through our space and, um, you know, when we started to film these videos around careers and had an opportunity to go tour around the country, uh, with another partner called Justin’s, who, um, Yeah, the ring people, which are which are out of a big network and connection into districts. And so we created the Find Your Grind Tour powered by Jostens Renaissance. And so the whole idea there was, let’s get in a bus and start speaking to kids about what the future actually looks like. And, um, start having some relevant conversations. And, you know, we would we would pack, you know, at one point an arena of 9,000 kids in in one show. So it was pretty impactful for us to say, okay, now we’ve, we’ve got this brand, we’ve got a ton of content. We’ve filmed, we have access to schools and students. You know, how do we then now transition this into kind of a for-profit entity and, you know, make this this leap from a content and speaking led business to a technology and product led company that could service the K-12 ecosystem inside of the public and private school system around America?

19:01 Nick Gross: And so we did that transition after about 2 or 3 years. And, um, you know, went in and hired a product team, hired a, ahead of, ahead of, of learning to develop our instructional assets and, um, kind of went from there.

19:17 Jim Beach: How do this, how do you make money? Are the kids paying or are the school systems paying? Where’s the money come from?

19:26 Nick Gross: Yeah, school systems are paying. So we’re, we’re a B to B, uh, enterprise software business, if you will, uh, where we’re trying to approach a district around the country to engage in multi-year contracts, uh, with them that ultimately, they paid for a price per student. Um, uh, you know, so if a district says we’ve got 5,000 kids, we really want to use Find Your Grind, uh, you know, what’s that going to cost? We break that down to a price per student model and hopefully, you know, the longer partnerships out of the gate or are ideally better and more fruitful for us. Um, and I think better as well for the districts knowing that they’re committed to the partnership and committed to really rolling out this technology and more so the ethos and the, the energy and the language around what finds your grind is is also trying to help students with.

20:20 Nick Gross: So it’s really kind of a mentality shift within the district of how they’re approaching career readiness with their students, where if they come in with Find Your Grind, hey, this is how we’re going to, this is how we’re going to talk about this moving forward, and this is how we’re going to, um, how this product is used and getting teachers on board with that, to learn new technologies and all of it. So it’s definitely a slower sales cycle in education and EdTech, which makes it hard for a lot of startup businesses in this sector to succeed. Um, Because it’s so much about building relationships with people at the district, building trust, building familiarity, um, before they engage in signing a multi-year deal with us. So sometimes that takes time, but when we ideally, we want to find, I’d rather find, you know, 50 of the best districts in America to work with than a 1,000 smaller schools that, um, take a lot of time and energy to manage and and all of that. So it’s just finding that healthy balance.

21:28 Jim Beach: Is there a homeschool price or do you have a deal with the homeschool association yet?

21:34 Nick Gross: Um, well, that hasn’t been our great market for us.

21:39 Jim Beach: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it’s um, president of homeschool. I mean, let’s go.

21:43 Nick Gross: Would love to talk to him. It has it hasn’t been our ideal customer profile. And yet, but there’s no reason why kids at home can’t also be using Find Your Grind. It just hasn’t been our sole focus right now. But yes, we’d love to talk to them.

22:00 Jim Beach: Yeah, it’d be easy if you go in through the association. You know, just like you’re going in through the school system.

22:08 Nick Gross: Totally.

22:09 Jim Beach: I love it. Let’s make it happen. Let’s go I’ll send you a W4.

22:14 Nick Gross: Perfect.

22:15 Jim Beach: What is your goal then with Find Your Grind? Is it to change the entire American education system and bring back shop? Do you think we should have shop in school, Nick?

22:25 Nick Gross: Listen, I think that our…

22:27 Jim Beach: Why not? Let’s go. I agree. I agree. Let’s change it all up.

22:32 Nick Gross: Um, I, I, but my big goal is to impact a 1,000,000 students with Find Your Grind. I think if we can do that, we’ve done a pretty awesome job and education. Um, I want to make sure that a 1,000,000 students are proven to be more future ready through the impact and usage of our product. So if a kid can go and Find Your Grind and use us for 6 months in school. You know, we do have the ability to prove out that they are becoming more future ready through our content and through our learning design and, um, through them, you know, feeling like they have a more realistic expectation of what their pathway looks like moving forward. So we have a lot of ways we measure that in internally. But I think that if we can say, hey, at the end of this journey, we’ve been able to make sure a 1000000 kids in America are more future ready around their pathways. I think that that helps in so many ways from a psychological standpoint to, um, an economical standpoint for the country, uh, and just the economic mobility of, of younger people today feeling more confident where they want to go and why they’re doing that. So that’s the big goal for us.

23:51 Nick Gross: And then also, yeah, we eventually want to sell this business and find the right partner moving forward that can, you know, help us continue to scale even bigger and build the sales team up and all of those kind of things that come with that. So we’ll see where that ends up being. But, you know, as a business side to this for us as well. Not just the impact side.

24:17 Jim Beach: I had a guest last week. Named Amanda Martin, and she’s the CEO of a new company called Studyville. They are on a very similar trajectory that you are on and are going on the same model that you are through school systems. Um, you should you should reach out to her. I’ll remind me and I’ll give you an introduction to her. But she’s, her product in no way overlaps your product.

24:43 Nick Gross: Hey, listen, if it did, I wouldn’t be surprised at the amount of EdTech companies there are today that, uh, are trying to navigate the school system, which I would tell 99% of them to not do it. But, uh, here we are 7 years later. So we’re figuring out a way.

25:02 Jim Beach: Yeah.

25:03 Jim Beach: My very 1st company was computer summer camps for kids. We were at Stanford, MIT, Georgetown, UCLA, SMU, 89 schools around the world, and, you know, so we were one of the very, very, very 1st EdTech companies. And it was so much easier. We dealt with one mom at a time, you know, one mom at a time. And so it was a pure B to C play. And it just made it so much easier because, you know, mom is easier than a school district is what I learned, you know? No matter how many moms you have. You just learn their one idiosyncrasy, you know, she’s obsessed with socks, you know? Yeah, you love that. And then, you know, uh, we just love the consumer model. And so I always tell education companies, don’t forget the consumer model as well because, uh, there are people there. Well, think about it. Do you have kids yet, Nick?

26:01 Nick Gross: Of course, yeah, thankfully I do. I’ve got a six year old boy.

26:06 Jim Beach: What would you pay if he didn’t, if he wasn’t happy in school and you realized that there was an education program that was perfect for him but different? What would you pay for that? Unlimited, right? You going to pay whatever it costs to get your child in the right programs. That’s right. And so the consumer model is whatever it costs, you know, my kid needs it. I don’t care what it costs me. I am going to pay for it. And so anyway.

26:36 Nick Gross: That’s right. That’s right. No, I am 100% on the same page with you on that. So, yeah, it’s been a fun journey so far and, um, it’s always great when you can find a, a company that can not only create commercial outcomes and, and, uh, and profit, but, you know, uh, also on the impact of what we’re able to create in schools and for kids. So it’s kind of the perfect combo business.

27:04 Jim Beach: How do we find out more? Follow you online, get in touch.

27:07 Nick Gross: Uh, yeah, I mean, Find Your Grind specifically. Everything’s at Find Your Grind Online, findyourgrind.com, uh, to see what we’re building in education and, you know, everything on our, uh, on our investment side is at grosslabs.com and, and, you know, my personal, uh, stuff is all at, at Nick Gross. So that’s that’s where I’m at.

27:30 Jim Beach: Fantastic. Nick, congratulations on a really cool life and career, and I love what you’re doing today, and we’d love to have you back in a year or so and get an update as you continue to grow that business.

27:45 Nick Gross: I appreciate it so much. This has been super fun and would love to do that. And I’ll see you at the next staff meeting, I guess.

27:54 Jim Beach: Let’s do it.

27:55 Nick Gross: I’ll see you there.

27:57 Jim Beach: I’ll bring the coffee And we will be right back.

28:00 Jim Beach: We are back in again. Thank you so much for being with us. Very excited to introduce another great guest to create a mosaic of all of the parts of entrepreneurship, the good, the bad, the ugly, everything. We want to bring you guests for every single topic, and at that end, I’m very excited to introduce you to Barry Levine. He is a bankruptcy attorney, and I hope you never need him, but the central message is, if you need him, you get through it, he will help you do that. He has been doing small business law since 1980, I think I read. Yes. That’s right. Very welcome. How you doing?

28:39 Barry Levine: I’m doing fine, but I just want to correct, it’s it’s Levine. I’m fine, but that’s okay. I’m doing fine. It’s a nice chilly September day up here in Massachusetts and I’ve been sitting in the office all day. What could be better?

28:56 Jim Beach: Not much. Barry and I have been reminiscing about Grateful Dead shows. He was an old hippie from the 70s actually living in the Bay Area. So.

29:06 Barry Levine: No, no, I’m from Brooklyn. I, I, you know, my, my late wife keep, kept saying, you know, the biggest mistake we made was not coming back from San Francisco, uh, was coming back from San Francisco on a honeymoon, but, you know, it’s, uh, we, we used to travel there a lot.

29:26 Jim Beach: And why’d you choose bankruptcy law?

29:27 Barry Levine: Well, I, when I started in law school, uh, I got a job at a law firm, where one of the principals, I, I actually pretty much worked there full time, one of the principals was a bankruptcy attorney, all of the collection and creditor attorneys in Massachusetts around Boston hated him. And it was a very good learning process. I mean, uh, I was, uh, thrown into, uh, dealing with bankruptcies and uh, he had other ways of getting companies out of business, uh, into new business that had debt. Uh, and, you know, once I graduated law school, I kept working for him. And what happened was he kept promising me the sky. Uh, and he wrote books. You can find his books, uh, how to buy a business, no money down, how to do this, how, well, he was writing the books in Florida, Christmas week. I was in Massachusetts running the practice. And uh, after that, I decided to leave, uh, I took most of his active bankruptcy with me because they knew I was doing the work. And uh since then, I’ve been out on my own. I, uh, represent small businesses and debtors, and individuals, consumers.

30:40 Jim Beach: So both sides?

30:43 Barry Levine: No, no, no, you know, the, the, the, the, the, few times, I, I, I love when I can represent a creditor. You know, I want my money and I want it now. Now, mostly when you represent debtors, you’re making excuses, taking a step back and moving to the side, you know, you get tired of it at almost 46 years.

31:04 Jim Beach: The standard spiel there is, we’re going bankrupt so either you get nothing or you deal with me and get a little bit, right?

31:13 Barry Levine: Well, not really because, you know, everything I’ve said has been wrong.

31:15 Jim Beach: Okay, how is that wrong?

31:19 Barry Levine: Most most people who go through bankruptcy. The the only type case that you’re assured of some sort of dividend is either in a Chapter 11 or Chapter 13, you know, the Chapter 11 is a full-blown reorganization. And you know, a year down the road, you may get a check for $12 or something like that. You know, most Chapter 11s uh historically don’t survive the 1st year after confirmation. The other payments you may get is if uh, you were a creditor of somebody who files a Chapter 13, which is a wager and a plan and they make payments. You know, but most of the cases in my preference is a straight Chapter 7. If I filed your case today, 4 months from now, you’d get you discharged and life goes on. You know, most people don’t lose any assets. Don’t miss a beat.

32:10 Jim Beach: All right. How do you not lose assets if you’ve got your personal name on guarantees for a bunch of stuff like leases and cars?

32:21 Barry Levine: Well, because because the guarantees, you know, it’s really a matter of what assets that you own personally, that are exposed. You know, and I suggest to entrepreneurial types that, you know, when they’re going into business, they should determine the downside, you know, what happens if the shit hits the fan? You know, it’s much easier to deal with it then than 6 years later and you know, oh, we have a house that I can’t protect. Let me convey it to my friend for love and affection.

32:54 Jim Beach: Okay, so. It sounds like my house is still on the line then.

32:59 Barry Levine: Well, no, most homes, you know, when you file a bankruptcy. There are the federal exemptions that you can take and the state exemption.

33:10 Jim Beach: First, are we talking personal or corporate bankruptcy? Isn’t that?

33:13 Barry Levine: Well, corporate bankruptcy has some exemptions, but mostly personal, because that’s, that’s where, you know, there, there are more assets to deal with, you know, in Chapter 11s and stuff, most of the assets are incumbent in, in shaft in, uh, in most cases, so it’s really nothing you’re dealing with. But uh, an individual can take the uh, federal exemptions. Which are a little more liberal on certain things. Or you can take the state exemptions. For instance, in Massachusetts. By taking the state exemptions, you can exempt up to $1,000000 in equity in real estate when you file a bankruptcy. So when you file your bankruptcy case, uh, the trustee will show the trustee a copy of the appraisal, a copy of the mortgage statement, and a copy of the homestead. End of discussion. You know, it only becomes a problem. Uh when you have assets that are non-exempt. And then the interesting thing about the way the bankruptcy court works, and reasons I keep Costco on my desk, is because the path of least resistance for a Chapter 7 trustee, if there is unexempt access, would be to offer the data to buy it back. No, I have a case now where, uh, woman, uh, she and her husband own a home in Melrose, a suburb of Boston. Uh, it’s exempt. We applied the homestead.

34:35 Barry Levine: It’s their primary residence. You can only have one homestead, and she owns a, a longtime family house up in New Hampshire. And uh, there’s after the mortgages, there’s $50,000 in unexempt equity. And she’s buying it back from her trustee. Okay. You know, everybody likes to make money and not have to work.

34:56 Jim Beach: Where does she get $50,000 if she’s bankrupt?

34:59 Barry Levine: Uh, her husband.

35:00 Jim Beach: Okay.

35:01 Barry Levine: Went through a bank who went through a bankruptcy already and is doing some wheeling and dealing in Bitcoin. Don’t ask, don’t get me started. And that’s where the money’s coming from. But it’s been a long wait, which is very often the case when you deal with debtors in situations like this.

35:18 Jim Beach: Right. So, when you find a client, they come into your office for the 1st time. How long have they been bouncing off the stratosphere of bankruptcy as they try to re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. How long have they been thinking about it, dealing with it, probably should have done it.

35:36 Barry Levine: Well, I find that most people suffer from inertia. And it’s, you know, the usual fact is, it’s, you know, they realize that all they’re doing is paying their credit cards and there’s no money left over. They’re like an indentured servant, you know, and that stopped in the 1860s. Slavery. Uh, but it takes them a while. To often realize that the state they’re in. And then I usually, you know, the one thing that when people come to visit us here, we manage to assuage their nerves about the whole process, they come up, they come out very relieved, because, you know, I look at it is, it’s not your health, not this, it’s not that. It’s only money and the credit card companies and the banks. Life will go on for them. They’re not going to lose anything. In fact, they’ll probably sell your discharge claim to somebody for ¢10 on the dollar who will come haunting you for payment.

36:34 Jim Beach: And how long does it take to wind through the courts and actually be discharged? You say 4 months ago.

36:43 Barry Levine: In in Massachusetts, if I, and I have no reason because they become a lot more efficient over the decades with computers getting better. From filing a case, to getting your discharge takes 4 months.

36:56 Jim Beach: Okay.

36:57 Barry Levine: You know, it can, it can be extended, but you know, in most assetless cases, which most cases are, it’s 4 months and life goes on.

37:05 Jim Beach: All right. And that’s for a personal bankruptcy. Right. Okay.

37:09 Barry Levine: Right. You know, chapter, you know, when it comes to, uh, corporations or LLCs thinking about filing Chapter 7s, I, there’s another alternative in Massachusetts, to liquidate a business, which is less intrusive on a closely held business than a bankruptcy. Is called an assignment for the benefit of creditors. The thing about the reason individuals, people file a bankruptcy, is they get a discharge, you know, uh, 4 months later, they get a piece of paper. The, the judges used to hand it out back in when I started in 1980 was like graduation day. They’d handed out the discharges, but now you get it, and you’re done. Um. The, the thing is that most people, wait, they don’t think about, about what needs to be done to get it off their shoulders.

37:58 Jim Beach: So, what should I do a year before I go bankrupt? And I know that’s a silly question because it’s, you know, hopefully he would, you know, save the business in that year. But what is the best way to have my company situated if I happen to go bankrupt?

38:15 Barry Levine: Well, the best thing to do is to see, you know, what exactly the land of land is, you know, who do you owe money to? Is it just, uh, secure debt? Is it withholding taxes? Is it sales tax or something like that? And then there’s the unsecured creditors. And then, I mean, even though they, was it called a, a subchapter V Chapter 11, which is a sort of an expedited process. Uh, it’s still, it’s, it’s a very involved uh, situation if you have to file a Chapter 11. Because you have to file cash flows, you have to open up new bank accounts, you have to make, uh, not so much the creditors happy, the, the bankruptcy quarters is divided into 2 parts. There’s the judge who presides over the case. And hopefully you see the judge rally. And then there’s what’s called the Office of the United States trustee, you know, from the government that I’m here to help. And they can be a pain in the ass. I mean, I can give you, for instance, I’m doing a Chapter 11 now. They, every month, you’re supposed to file cash flows, you know, income expenses and all this other stuff. And originally they told me I had to send it to the trustees office.

39:35 Barry Levine: Then they told me, I need to file it on the docket online, which is what I’ve been doing. Now, anybody’s who is involved with the case, gets a copy of it. But now they told me I need to send them a copy again. Just because they can, and they usually send this shit out on Fridays too. Very annoying.

39:55 Jim Beach: Barry? Yeah, this is real radio, by the way. Not a podcast. So let’s not say the 7 dirty words anymore, okay?

40:05 Barry Levine: Okay, I, I, well, you know, like, I’m from Brooklyn. I’ll try to use Yiddish instead of dirty words.

40:12 Jim Beach: I’ll have to try to remember to bleep them. All right. What’s the biggest bankruptcy you’ve ever seen? The biggest debt that someone came in owing?

40:20 Barry Levine: Well, it it goes back a number of years. There was a guy who was uh, developing property on the Cape. And he was using a bank in Worcester.

40:32 Jim Beach: Worcester.

40:33 Barry Levine: And he had a butt. He had a buddy at the bank who would advance money on properties that they said had been 90% completed, but were basically holes in the ground. And they, the bank, we were running a, uh, we were selling. If I liked the Cape, I would have should have bought some property. We were giving away property down there, and the unfortunate thing about it, they had the seller had enticed a lot of elderly people at the time, and this goes back to the early 80s. Uh, to invest, and the deposits were lost. You know, they were able to buy lots, you know, whatever the going rate was but they lost their deposits. And uh, they must have taken uh, the bank for in the 1000000s. You know, I. Another case, uh, you know, I always tell people about my Bitcoin case, uh, guys in a bankruptcy and is the owner of 1,807 Bitcoin. And the Bitcoin came to him. Through a series of circumstances inviting identity theft and all this other michigas. And uh, somebody worked on his laptop and said to him, have you ever, dealt with Bitcoin and he hadn’t. Didn’t remember. Guy came back and tells him you have 1,807 Bitcoin on your laptop.

41:49 Barry Levine: And the guy decided to become the custodian of the Bitcoin and he’s been holding them. And refuses to turn over the keys. And my poor client had to file a bankruptcy to stop a foreclosure, he’s worth about $200 million. And the interesting thing about this case is after 2 years, the court couldn’t do anything, so they decided the Chapter 7 trustee decided to sell my client’s interest in the Bitcoin, to $350,000. My client with another group of people. You know, in the bankruptcy court, everything is a matter of disclosure, stepped up and put in a bid for $610,000. The 6.one because it’s the interesting thing about the case is that he’s a solvent debtor. Because he only has $5 million worth of debt and $200 million worth of assets. He put in a bit of $610000 which would have paid all the creditors off in full and resulted in a $1,000000 to him.

42:46 Jim Beach: Right.

42:47 Barry Levine: The judge decided it was a bad faith. Offer and gave it to the $350,000.

42:53 Jim Beach: Oh, God.

42:54 Barry Levine: And they can, because for 2 years, they’ve been, uh, trying to track down the Bitcoin, and no matter how they’ve tried, you know, I guess, from what I understand, you can watch what goes on in a wallet when you deal with Bitcoin.

43:08 Jim Beach: Right.

43:11 Barry Levine: But unless you have the code, you can’t do anything about it. And they can see Bitcoin going in and out and in and out, but nobody’s been able to get a handle on the Bitcoin.

43:23 Jim Beach: Well, I’ve been to Worcester and some of the areas around there like Lawrence and stuff like that. I know some guys in Lawrence. They’ll find it.

43:34 Barry Levine: Who knows some guys who know some guys.

43:35 Jim Beach: Excuse me?

43:36 Barry Levine: Who knows some guys who know some guys?

43:39 Jim Beach: Yeah, exactly. You know?

43:40 Barry Levine: Well, in, in, uh, the city of Lynn, which is a little farther south, they used to call it Lynn Lightning when you called in those boys.

43:50 Jim Beach: Yes. Yes. Here we call that Alabama lightning.

43:53 Barry Levine: Okay, you know, it depends on the state.

43:56 Jim Beach: I can see the difference.

43:59 Barry Levine: Yeah.

44:00 Jim Beach: How do clients pay you if they’re bankrupt? If they’re truly broke, how do you get paid, Barry?

44:05 Barry Levine: Well, we we learn very early on that we can’t be a creditor of our own debtor. The courts don’t let us do that. Uh, the people may have heard it.

44:15 Jim Beach: Okay, so your clients can’t owe you money.

44:19 Barry Levine: Exactly. Especially if you’re filing a bankruptcy. So how we do it, you know, is I quote them the fee. I mean, uh, around my office, uh, typical Chapter 7 is $2,500. Uh, the filing fee is $338 and if they own a house, we pull an appraisal because you have to show the trustee what the house is worth. Not just, I think it’s worth this. And then, uh, depending upon whether it’s one person or 2 people, a credit report. And, you know, in a perfect world, uh, they’d say, Barry, who do you make the checkout to? But I’m an inveterate cynic. And as I mentioned, I’m from Brooklyn, there’s no such thing as the perfect world. So in order to retain us, and at that point in time, we start running interference for them with their creditors, you pay us $250. My assistant will then set it up that you can pay the balance online, that we don’t charge interest or penalties. We don’t file the case until the balance is paid in full. But we only ask that you pay the balance off within 6 months and that’s when we file the case. And most people can deal with that.

45:31 Jim Beach: Okay. That’s a lot cheaper than I thought it would be for one thing. And I like the term.

45:38 Barry Levine: Well, you know, if somebody wants to pay more, I’m not going to dissuade them, but it really, you know, I am. Well, I don’t know if you, people would get the logic of this, but you know, along the lines I said of a, uh, If you, if a company files Chapter 7. Its assets get liquidated. And instead doesn’t go away, but it has no more assets. And this uh, he was a doctor. He came to consult with me, but, you know, why didn’t? Why would anyone listen to me doing it a long time? So he went to this attorney who I know of. Who charged them now, most Chapter 7s, 2500, maybe 3 grand in, not, not a lot of money, uh, he charges this guy $7000. The company goes through the Chapter 7, an LLC. The trustee abandons the assets back to the LLC. Not getting a discharge, all they did for 7 grand was walk around in a circle. Because the company still has its assets. And it still has its liabilities.

46:45 Jim Beach: Right.

46:46 Barry Levine: Makes it kind of cynical sometimes. Well, you know, I, uh, you know, you look at what, because I know, you know, one thing that the courts like to do when you file bankruptcies for people, is sometimes bust your chops about the fees, you know, they used to be a judge here when we would, uh, submit a fee application for a Chapter 11. I would ask to be repaid for parking. He was incensed. Then I said, Judge Levian, validate. I won’t have to pay for it. Court never validated. I mean, you know, it’s, they, the thing is, it’s, in, in Chapter 7s, we really don’t keep track of our time, and usually, if called upon to keeping track of my time, the time is usually more than what the people paid me. You know, it’s like when uh, before they file a bankruptcy, they get sued by somebody. And I know most of the collection attorneys around here, I’ve dealt with them for decades, and I have a very nice letter that, that, you know, I’m going to send them that says, you know, receive a copy of your complaint, my client either has the inclination or the financial wherewithal to defend a lawsuit that she’s going to discharge in the bankruptcy. Have a nice day.

48:04 Barry Levine: And you know, I tell my clients, if you want to defend the lawsuit, it’s going to cost you more than the bankruptcy. Litigation costs a lot of money. And from a, uh debtor’s point of view, you know, from, you know, I know everything is a panic. But i- in Massachusetts and most most other states, because what eventually happens, you know, the collection process itself is meant to be delayed. Because, uh, creditors don’t like to give away the claims because if they do get paid, now they have to share it with somebody. And the thing is, people are so willing to give, uh, credit card companies, excuse me, and banks, cell phone numbers, and their email numbers, you know, years ago, the rule of thumb was, if you were 3 months in arrears, that’s when you heard from the creditor. Now you get a, you get a text the day before the payments do. You get a text the day of the payment and you get a text the day after telling you the payment ha- has to be made. You know, in fact, along those lines of being a good son. Uh, I gave my mother-in-law when she was alive on the family plan, a rise in phone.

49:23 Barry Levine: And when she passed away, that was the phone number I used to give to her creditors, my creditors. I never answered it, but they had a number. Enjoy. See, but what happens eventually is the credit will send a, a debtor, a collection later, and under federal statutes, all this, you know, uh, consumer protection stuff. That letter will say that if you dispute the amount, claims is due, let us know in 30 days. It doesn’t cost you any money. And of course, it’s a credit card. It’s not like God forbid you’re in a car accident, you know. Back aches, this aches. I mean, you either use the credit card or you did it. But you send them that letter, telling them you dispute the amount. What then happens is the creditor will now send you a copy of every invoice and statement that you’ve ever had on that account. To review. You’re still not going to pay them because you’re not in the situation to pay them necessarily. What then happens is they send it to a collection agency. The collection agency can only nudge you and they only do the same thing. Then you a letter, and that letter will have that same. Send us the notice of dispute in writing within 30 days.

50:40 Barry Levine: Well, with a computer and a printer, make sure the address C has been changed and send them back that same letter. And now all you’re doing is buying time. I mean, at some point, you know, either it gets dealt with, you know, or you file the bankruptcy and it goes away, but it’s built in to take time. So eventually the collection agency gets fed up. And they send it to a collection attorney. Now the collection attorney, of course, has to send you that same letter. And you send that same letter back. You know, and oftentimes the collection attorney who sends you the demand letter is in California and you’re in Illinois. So like who cares? Or maybe in the same state. But again, they now have to ask the collection agency for the invoices, it’s, it becomes like a real circular, uh, dynamic. Eventually they sue you. You have no defense to the lawsuit, and I used to, when people were in between filing their case, as a courtesy, I used to prepare pro se answers, which means they’re not represented by an attorney. They doing it on their own.

51:50 Jim Beach: Barry, we’re out of time. To wrap it up real fast.

51:54 Barry Levine: Okay, what happens is the collection, the collection firms are so sophisticated that they inundate the poor people with collection, you know, discovery, which nobody wants to do. The only time I’m concerned is when the sheriff shows up at your house with the judgment, and it leaves your house with the judgment unsatisfied, and there’s a process in Massachusetts, and most other states, where they haul you into court to see, they issue a summons, to haul you into court to see you about your ability to repay. Usually, by that time, if you’ve retained an attorney, you tell the judge, this is my attorney, here’s his name and number, and the judge has come back in 6 weeks. Why it can be a problem is very often debtors don’t bother, and they don’t show up. The judge will then issue a capias for your arrest, and you’ll be tooling down the mass pike, zipping past Worcester, and you’ll get pulled over for by a state trooper for speeding, and he’ll go, whoa. There’s a warrant for your arrest from the Salem District Court. The next thing you know, you’re going to the barracks to be impounded. Not necessarily.

53:06 Jim Beach: Barry, how do we get in touch with you? We got to wrap it up.

53:13 Barry Levine: Uh, you can go to my website, www.levineslaw.com. That’s all small letters. I have a uh, YouTube page with my, uh, podcast. It’s uh Barry Levine Bankruptcy Through the Looking Glass. Uh, you can always send me an email at barry@levineslaw.com, all small letters when I do answer emails. And uh, you can always uh, buy my book on Amazon, the Bankruptcy Through the Looking Glass. Be a bestseller.

53:39 Jim Beach: Fantastic. Barry, thank you so much for being with us and we’d love to have you back.

53:45 Barry Levine: Thank you.

53:46 Jim Beach: I love it.

53:47 Barry Levine: Had a great time.

53:48 Jim Beach: I did too. We are out of time for today, but you know what we do. Right. We come back. Be safe, take care, and go make a million dollars. Bye now.