January 5, 2026 – Legal SEO Lindsey Busfield and Podtopia Network Joe Massa

0:04 Speaker 1: Broadcasting from AM and FM stations around the country. Welcome to the Small Business Administration award-winning School for Startups Radio, where we talk all things small business and entrepreneurship. Now here is your host, the guy that believes anyone can be a successful entrepreneur, because entrepreneurship is not about creativity, risk, or passion: Jim Beach.

0:25 Jim Beach: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another exciting edition of School for Startups Radio. Boy, we got a great show for you today. It is deserving of the first show of the year. Welcome to 2026. It’s going to be a great year for you and me, I promise. If it’s not, I will return all of your payments. First up today, we’re going to talk a little bit of SEO, and then more particular GEO search engines for chat, and a little SEO for legal with Lindsey Busfield. And then today we’re going to have Joe Massa on the show from Podtopia Network. He is an amazing guy. What he’s doing in the pod space. So it’s a crammed show. We’re going to get started right now. Here we go. Happy 2026. I’m very excited to welcome, I guess, my first guest of the year, Lindsey Busfield. Welcome to the show. Lindsey is a legal SEO expert, when, in other words, she helps law firms get found better with their SEO efforts. She is vice president at, is it earning? Optimize My Firm, Optimize My Firm, as in my law firm. And she’s had a very interesting career prior to that, in other digital marketing, had quite a few work jobs. This career has advanced. It started off as a school teacher, but was smart enough to get out of that and do some constructive things. I love it. Lindsey, welcome to the show. Thanks for being with us. 

1:58 Lindsey Busfield: Thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here. 

2:01 Jim Beach All right, so would you rather teach third grade English or SEO?

2:06 Lindsey Busfield: Oh, man, third graders are a little sticky, so I’m going to go SEO all day long.

2:11 Jim Beach: Oh, you just used my buzzword too, sticky. I hate sticky. The thought of like all of that, you know, or Eggo waffle syrup that would come out all those kids’ hands and stuff. Oh, just

2:23 Lindsey Busfield: Gross at best.

2:27 Jim Beach: Oh, don’t do that. What the other alternatives are? What’s going on in the SEO world these days? It seems to me we’re at a huge transition point because SEO talks about Google, but I’ve quit using Google because OpenAI or something like that answers my question. I don’t have to do the next click-through. What’s going on in the SEO world?

2:55 Lindsey Busfield: So that is a really great question, and it’s one that’s on top of everybody’s mind now. But when it comes to SEO and how it plays with AI, AI is still drawing off of what is out there on the internet. So it’s still picking up things from the most respected websites and the websites that are ranking most highly. So when it comes to wanting to show up in AI, as long as you’re doing good SEO, that’s how you show up in there. And when it comes to people being afraid that AI is going to be taking away all of your web traffic, and your website isn’t going to have as many visitors and lose all this business because AI is coming in and taking over, that fear is a little unfounded, just because of the types of searches that are going on in AI. So when people are going to AI, they are typically going to find answers to questions that are very basic questions. In the legal field, it’s, “What’s the statute of limitations in Wisconsin?” So that type of question, four years, two, it’s either two years or four years in most states. So that type of information is what people are using AI for. And that type of inquiry isn’t really a transactional inquiry. When somebody is looking to hire an attorney, they are searching for an attorney near them, or they are going to Google, or they’re going to their friends, or they’re looking at the reviews for different law firms in their areas. So when it comes to that AI traffic pulling it away from existing websites, and SEO being a dumpster fire, it’s really kind of an unfounded fear. And people, especially in the legal industry, which I can speak most to, but in most industries, it’s really not going to be taking away from your business. It might take away from some of your traffic that answers those questions, but not something to be uber concerned about. Just make sure that you’re doing good SEO and getting content out there and getting in front of People

4:59 Jim Beach: All Right! So let’s describe exactly the nature of your business and talk about the firm and everything. Optimize My Firm. You are about 10 people, 12 people, something like that.

5:14 Lindsey Busfield: Yeah, we have about a dozen employees now, and we serve law firms across the country. So we specifically work with personal injury firms for the most part. And so what that means is, when somebody is in a car accident, or they slip and fall at Walmart, or they get bit by a dog at a dog park, they typically go to Google to try to find a personal injury attorney who can help cover the costs of their recovery. So when a law firm wants to get found on Google, they come to our firm, and we help their website, we help their digital presence so that they can get found first before their prospective clients find a different attorney who is investing in SEO.

5:57 Jim Beach: All right, so do you have territories? How do you deal with having three legal firms in Raleigh that all want your services? Can you help three firms in the same city and be fair? That makes sense.

6:15 Lindsey Busfield: So there are some agencies out there that do. We don’t, because we like to sleep well at night. So we will only take on one law firm in any particular sector, in any particular market.

6:29 Jim Beach: So there is a law in having multiple clients in Raleigh.

6:34 Lindsey Busfield: Yes, I think that that’s a little unethical, to say the least. If you are telling one client, “Oh, well, you know, if you really want to beat out, you know, Johnson and Morgan over there, then you need to pay us more money,” while I’m still going over to Johnson and Morgan and saying, “Hey, if you want to beat out, you know, Joe and Fishkin,” then absolutely, I think that there are some ethical considerations that need to be put into place, into why you are operating your business that way. But everybody has their own operational strategy. For us, we believe in building up the law firms that we work with, having a true partnership, and that their success is really our success. So we choose to have a geographically exclusive model.

7:18 Jim Beach: Excellent. Well, I love that, and then it also has several advantages. So, for example, if you don’t have anyone in Tulsa, you can go look around in Tulsa and find a client there.

7:30 Lindsey Busfield: Right. I know exactly where my market opportunities are, exactly.

7:34 Jim Beach: It makes the marketing really, really, really, really well-defined, right?

7:39 Lindsey Busfield: And that’s something that I definitely believe in. When entrepreneurs are getting started, they typically tend to throw out a bunch of darts and see what sticks in terms of their marketing. And it can be so overwhelming when you’re starting with a blank canvas. So I really believe that you need to do some research into what your ideal client is, where your ideal client is, and come up with about 20% of that market space and really directly market towards them. So for us, that is looking at different geographic markets that perform best with our SEO strategy for the types of law firms that are out there, and the geographic markets that we have available to work within. So defining those parameters really helps us to be strategic in our marketing efforts, and we get the better ROI for our marketing dollars.

8:30 Jim Beach: Well, why would you even market if you literally have a bucket of 28 different law firms that are left that you could represent? You don’t need to market. You just need to take those 28 managing partners to dinner every six months.

8:50 Lindsey Busfield: You would think that, but there, I mean, there are so many SEO agencies out there, some that are general practice, some that specifically work with law firms. But you have about 62,000 personal injury firms across the country. And so you have a very, very wide market that you could be serving. And we have a handful of territories that are already spoken for, but the rest of those are pretty open. So you need to be mindful of where law firms are within that buying process. So there are about 5% who are actively looking for a new SEO agency or any service, and this is true across pretty much any business sector, but there are 5% of your target market that are actively looking to change service providers, and there are about 8% that are actively really, really happy with the service providers that they have. So you have about 92% of prospective customers that are indifferent, or they don’t know that they need your product or service. And the marketing effort really needs to go to that 92%, so that they have you as top of mind when they come to the realization that they actually need your product or service. And that’s where that marketing comes in. It comes into that top of mind awareness and reminding people that you are there, you’re the trusted service provider for when they are ready to make that transition. So the marketing for that looks like investing in our own SEO. It looks like investing in thought leadership articles. It looks like investing in our social media and our video presence. So that’s where that marketing comes into play.

10:33 Jim Beach: Lindsey, I love your answers because they’re full of like data and things like statistics, you know, and I mean, it just makes you sound like you really know what you’re talking about. So that’s just very well.

10:45 Lindsey Busfield: Thank you. I like to at least pretend to know what I’m talking about.

10:48 Jim Beach: It works either way. And so, listeners, just, I, you know, I’m pointing this out, listener, so you can understand what to replicate. Because I thought Lindsey with her 3% and 5% and stuff was just very impressive with that answer. So that’s all I’m saying.

11:04 Lindsey Busfield: Well, and it’s important to do your research, especially when you’re throwing money after it. And if you are in the startup phase, or if you’re getting slightly beyond that startup phase, you need to be strategic in what you’re doing, and that starts with identifying specifically what your vertical is, and then moving into making a plan to target your best clients. And as you do that, it narrows your focus, it narrows your spend, and really improves your ROI as you continue to grow.

11:38 Jim Beach: All right, how are we going to deal with AI? Then do we change what we’re doing at an SEO level? Have we come up with a term for what SEO for AI is called?

11:51 Lindsey Busfield: Yet, there are a lot of terms out there that people are throwing around, and like, one of the big ones is GEO. And there are just a handful of acronyms out there, but they really don’t mean anything yet, because GEO is like generative engine optimization and, you know, does it, though? And a lot of these acronyms and buzzwords out there are new startups that are trying to drum up business, which, you know, yay startups, but they are kind of jumping the gun because GEO doesn’t actually exist. There aren’t generative engines out there. The AI that we have right now is pulling from existing content that’s on websites. So as long as you are doing really good SEO, and by that I mean developing good content that’s creative, that’s unique, that has high search value and high informational value, but hasn’t been written a million times over, and that you’re doing good things when it comes to backlinks and making sure that your website is credible and is gaining trust value with Google, then you really don’t have a whole lot else that you can be doing to optimize for AI. So it just comes down to creating great content, both written content, video content, podcast content.

13:21 Jim Beach: I’ll throw that one in while we’re just, by far the easiest way for a firm to constantly create content. Bruce Rivers. Do you know Bruce Rivers, Lindsey?

13:21 Jim Beach: You know. You don’t know his legal content. I know. I don’t check him out. He’s, he, his, he’s a criminal defense lawyer, right? So you know he’s got guns on the table as he’s doing his podcast and stuff in front of him. And his tagline is, “Stop self snitching, stop telling himself,” and so he’s just a character, you know. But I know who he is, and I don’t have a criminal defense attorney. I’ve never hired a criminal defense attorney, you know. But I know who this dude is, because he came across my feed, right? Yeah, I think that that would be an awesome model for one of your attorneys to kind of copy. What kind of success have you had with the podcast? Because all the things you just listed, consistent content that’s on topic, that’s new, that’s relevant, I mean, every single thing there was in my mind, a podcast or a video thing, you know. So, yeah,

14:40 Lindsey Busfield: Podcasts and videos are two of the most underutilized platforms that I think all entrepreneurs should be jumping into, because as an entrepreneur, you have started a business because you have some sort of knowledge or expertise about your industry, and that means that you have something to give back. That means that you have some intelligent thoughts about whatever industry it is that you’re in that you could put on paper, that you could put on a video, that you can talk about in some capacity and digitize. And as you do that, you are creating a better digital footprint and making it easier for Google to find you and respect you as an expert in your industry. So creating video content is as easy as coming up with 10 questions that somebody might ask you about your specific industry, or 10 questions that a client typically asks you. And you don’t have to come up with these yourself. You can base it on your own basic knowledge, but you can go into Perplexity, or the AI tool of choice, and have them come up with 10 topics for you to talk about. And then you record these on your phone. They don’t have to be fancy, and then you post them on YouTube. Or you find similar podcasts that are related to your industry and go be a guest on there. Or you start your own podcast where you interview other industry experts who know a lot about whatever it is that you’re doing. These are all really great ways to get your knowledge out there, as well as to build connections with others in your industry.

16:16 Jim Beach: One of the things that my favorite play for the podcast thing is to interview your best 50 prospective clients, so that if you were to make a list of 50 people you dreamed of doing business with, and have one of those on per week, where you’re showing them, telling them how brilliant they are, how great their strategy is. “Wow, sir, you executed that really well. You know, Bob, damn, I’ve interviewed a lot of people in this industry, this paper waste industry, and you’re, by far, you’re smart,” you know, I’m serious. I think that’s strategy.

16:58 Lindsey Busfield: That is a great strategy, and it’s one that we use on our own podcast. So I’m the host of a podcast, The Personal Injury Marketing Minute, shameless plug. And on that podcast, I bring in lawyers that are, you know, big-name lawyers, or they have really big ideas that are innovative, and these are people that should be getting additional publicity. But I also just love building the connections with them and talking them up, because I get to dive into whatever it is that they’re passionate about, and if we can vibe together on what they’re passionate about, then that can foster an ongoing relationship that could turn into a business relationship.

17:36 Jim Beach: Democrat politics, exactly, aren’t they all? Is it true that 100% of personal injury attorneys are Democrat super supporters?

17:47 Lindsey Busfield: Absolutely not. And you really get a lot of variety across the political spectrum. And I love this about working in different markets and different areas, where I get to meet people from all different political bends and all different ethnic cultures. And man, there are so many great people who are serving in the personal injury field, because they all get into this practice so they can make a difference. And yes, they get a bad rap, and there are a lot of ambulance chaser jokes out there. We all know those. But really, at the heart of it, there are so many different practice areas that they could have chosen. And at least the lawyers that I choose to work with are ones that have the right why behind why they started their practices.

18:42 Jim Beach: I think what Morgan & Morgan have done is amazing. I mean, that’s an amazingly well-run business. It looks from the outside.

18:51 Lindsey Busfield: It is a very well-run business. And they

18:56 Jim Beach: With a great marketing engine.

18:58 Lindsey Busfield: They have a great marketing engine. You definitely can’t, can’t argue against that.

19:03 Jim Beach: And I think that, like 97% of their customers, I’m totally making this up, think that Morgan & Morgan grew up and live in their city.

19:13 Lindsey Busfield: They do, and I mean, you can’t fight the fact that they have great marketing. They have billboards everywhere. If you go to Florida, it’s like Morgan & Morgan central, looking at their billboards, and they do have such a presence in so many different locations that they become a household name. But they also are putting 30 to 50 million dollars a month in their marketing spend. So you look at their amazing strategies, but they are the biggest spenders, to my knowledge, in the personal industry field, and have created this just an empire for themselves. And it has been difficult for a lot of attorneys to be able to compete in areas that they’re in, but that’s just kind of the nature of the game. But they have figured out how to play that game really, really well.

20:10 Jim Beach: That number is shockingly big, but I, you know, it’s a billion-dollar business. I mean, they do a billion dollars a year in revenue at least.

20:19 Lindsey Busfield: So they do, and they have a business

20:23 Jim Beach: Marketing is about, right, it is.

20:27 Lindsey Busfield: And so they have a model where it is a very settlement-heavy model. They’re not going to be litigating these cases, so they’re not going to be getting the biggest settlements for their clients, but they have a faster turnaround. And so every law firm has a different model, but for them, it is a very quick turnaround personal injury business model. And with that, the more money that you spend getting into it, the more cases you can get in the door, and the faster you can get them back out. Yeah, so they’ve got a very well-known practice across the country.

21:06 Jim Beach: Yes, you mean here in Atlanta?

21:07 Lindsey Busfield: Yes, clearly, just in Atlanta, right?

21:13 Jim Beach: Business is in Atlanta. It’s amazing how much we trip and fall here in Atlanta.

21:19 Lindsey Busfield: You guys really have some issues with gravity over there.

21:26 Jim Beach: Yeah, right. Our snowstorms are just unbelievable. We’ve already had snowflakes this year, though.

21:32 Lindsey Busfield: Have you really? Yes. Oh, wow, yeah. We got a few here in North Carolina yesterday, and my school district that my kids are in is the fastest to shut down school, so they have been out of school for the past two days. But to be fair, we did get like three flurries, even though it is sunshiny and dry out today. But I actually grew up in Colorado, and it was so unfortunate. I never got a snow day the entire time I lived in Colorado, because they are so prepared. And there was one year, my junior year of high school, where we got eight feet of snow over three days, eight feet, and it would have been the one time I would have gotten a snow day, but it was over spring break. It was rough, and not that I’m bitter or anything.

22:28 Jim Beach: I went to college in Vermont, and we never got a snow day, of course, but in the third week of my freshman year, we got a hurricane day. Wow. One of the storms came up through New York and then kept on going. And so what we did was, everything, we had huge hills on campus, because it’s, you know, it’s Vermont, and it’s Vermont. Everyone got cafeteria trays and went sledding down the hills of mud and went mudding and everything and all of these hills. Then there was, you know, six inches of rain in an hour type situation, and then every single college kid went back dripping with mud, and all of us took showers at the same time and blew out the city water system. Oh no, oh my gosh. So the entire student body got in trouble, though.

23:27 Lindsey Busfield: But it’s one of those once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, right?

23:30 Jim Beach: Oh, it was the greatest thing ever. You know, because, you know, we’re Middlebury, we go sledding all the time, and every, you know, once a week there’s a good cafeteria tray sledding event after dinner and stuff. It’s just part of the culture there. But this was pure mud, you know, just flowing mud. But I’m sure the turfologists had spent months cultivating, you know, during the summer, when it was nice and beautiful, and we destroyed it in a matter of minutes.

24:02 Lindsey Busfield: So I’m sure there were many people who were not so thrilled with this.

24:06 Jim Beach: Yes, yes. I also, I don’t know if it was that year, I ran a, like, one of the competitions you have on campus between the dorms and stuff. I was one of the freshman organizers to do all of that stuff when I was a senior, so I was the one telling them what to do. And we had a scavenger hunt. And at the bottom, Lindsay, I said, “Anything else you get will give you points depending on how cool it is.” So they got the police mobile desk from the president’s office, oh my gosh, and put it in front of my parking space.

24:51 Lindsey Busfield: And did you give them all the points?

24:53 Jim Beach: Oh, God, yes, yes. But of course, I spent like a month at the dean’s office.

24:58 Lindsey Busfield: Of course you did. Yeah, of course. Out of one of those college movies from the 80s.

25:05 Jim Beach: Yes, Animal House, yes. Lindsey, amazing job with y’all are doing. They’re fantastic, building the agency to a good dozen. And I love, love, love, we haven’t mentioned this, the niche, the niche, niche, niche, you know, you’re not trying to go out there and get painters, you know. And so I just love that you have such a narrow niche, personal injury, legal only, and it just gives you a huge advantage. So, well done, well planned.

25:36 Lindsey Busfield: Thank you. And I definitely recommend niching down to businesses as they start to grow. It is a great way to set yourself up as an industry expert. And while it might feel a little scary that you’re closing yourself off to some forms of business, the fact that you’re saying no to others and yes to an exclusive some just sets you up to be the premier person for your industry. So I could speak about the values of niching down all day long, but it’s something that I firmly believe in that is a very big key to big success, if that is what you’re after.

26:15 Jim Beach: How do we find out more? Follow you online. Get in touch.

26:19 Lindsey Busfield: Yes, find me at optimizemyfirm.com. I’m on LinkedIn. I’m the only Lindsey Busfield out there, so it’ll be very easy to find. And if you have any questions, do feel free to reach out at lindsey@optimizemyfirm.com.

26:33 Jim Beach: Fantastic, Lindsey. Thank you so very much for being with us, and we’d love to have you back. Great stuff. Thanks a lot.

26:33 Lindsey Busfield: Thank you.

26:33 Jim Beach: And we will be right back.

26:54 Jim Beach: We are back, and again, thank you so very much for being with us. Very excited to introduce another great guest to the show. Please welcome Joe Massa to the show. We met, oh, a week or so ago. We were interviewed on a show together. We were guest one and guest two, or Thing One and Thing Two, or something like that, and we were very attracted to each other, oh, Joe, and decided we need to interview each other. And so I am excited to learn about what Joe is doing as the founder of the Podtopia Network. He has a long career in professional media. Has done a couple of decades in real radio and marketing, public relations, and ad sales. He has a show of his own called The Measuring Post Podcast, which focused on self-development, personal growth, and storytelling. He is also creating My Suicide Story, which is a docu-series that gives voice to suicide survivors. And as I said, he is the CEO and founder of the Podtopia Network, which is one of the largest out there. He is one of the biggest guys in pod. Joe, welcome to show. How you doing?

28:07 Joe Massa: What an introduction that was. I can just hear now the crowd going wild. So thank you for the nice introduction. That was great.

28:14 Jim Beach: To hear the wrong one. I was trying to do applause. Yes, we can also add, yeah, there it is. You’re a world-renowned lover, and we offer service every time you walk into a new room. We’ll introduce you thusly.

28:29 Joe Massa: So now, that’s good service right there. That’s why I came on the show.

28:33 Jim Beach: That’s right. So I’ll talk to you about the pricing model for that after the show. Okay, tell us about why pod, what attracted you to the space?

28:47 Joe Massa: You know, really, it started with a love of radio, as we’re on the radio right now. That’s where I cut my teeth. It was in the radio world, and it was always something I knew I wanted to do. Didn’t know why. My wife would tell you it’s because I talked too much. So radio was a natural evolution for a career path. And I spent many, many years in the industry. I still work there off and on. I never really fully left. But as technology sort of changed and adapted and grew, the next evolution, clearly, was podcasting. And I had a lot of my clients that I would work with that were building podcasts and sort of expanding into that space. So it was something that naturally I just kind of followed their suit. And really, once I got into it, there was no going back. It’s so powerful for a medium. It’s one of the last truly free mediums. Obviously, you know, radio, TV is very censored. Podcasts, you can be a little more free to speak your mind. Obviously, you have to keep that within the grams of what’s important on what platform you’re sharing that, but I feel like you can really have your powerful message shared in podcasting, and it’s really something that your audience and your listeners are very hyper engaged. So it’s a really powerful tool for your marketing toolkit, your branding, anything where you’re trying to sell a product, of course, spread your thought awareness and be a thought leader. Podcasting is this space. So the more and more I spend time in it, the more and more I love it.

30:12 Jim Beach: Is it different from radio? How is it different? What makes it special or different from any other medium, audio or video? For God’s sakes, you know, we call Joe’s thing a podcast. It’s a video. I don’t know if the words mean anything anymore.

30:30 Joe Massa: Yeah, there’s a lot of overlap. So, you know, what I find is a lot of radio show hosts also repurpose their radio show for podcasting. A lot of podcasters try to get their podcast on radio, so they’re very much related to one another. I think the difference is, with the podcasting space is you really get to control more of what you want to talk about. Radio, you kind of have your hands tied sometimes, depending on what format you’re on, but you’re really more in the driver’s seat with the podcasting, and you can control your own advertisers, sponsorships, where you don’t always get that opportunity in radio. A lot of times, the station will fill in the gaps of what you’re going to advertise or what sponsors are going to be, you know, released within your show. So it gives you a little bit more granularity control. And I find that the listeners tend to be slightly more engaged because they had to find your show, they had to download it, they had to consume the content, so they really want to hear what you’re talking about, whereas radio, it’s sort of hit or miss that way. And don’t get me wrong, this is not a bash on radio. Radio is extremely powerful, a great forum, and it’s really the first love of my media life. So I just think the difference is you are more in control, as opposed to being dictated what you’re allowed to or not to do.

31:46 Jim Beach: Tell us about Podtopia Network. Podtopia Network.

31:52 Joe Massa: Podtopia was born about a year ago, last January, in 2025, and it was meant to be sort of a creator community where people come to collaborate, learn, share, and grow together. We don’t really view other podcasters or radio personalities as competition. We view them as collaborators, people that are further along than us we want to learn from and grow with. People that are just starting, we want to be mentors to and teach. So we’ve created a platform where we have courses and templates and resources for show hosts to use, learn, and grow, how to start your own show. We’ve got a collaborating community where people can go in and share what they’re working on and connect with other people in the space. And rolling out later this year, we’re going to roll out our studio program, which is essentially our own recording platform with some automated workflows and production pipelines, where people then can learn from us, they can get our tool stack to do the work, then they can share their work and connect on our community side. So we’re really a full ecosystem for all things podcasting, but we also work with radio people, media, PR, marketing, SEO. So really, anyone in that space is welcome and encouraged to join the Podtopia community.

33:08 Jim Beach: Does it cost?

33:11 Joe Massa: So for podcast hosts, we allow you to come in the network absolutely free. We’ll never charge for that. Your show needs to be visible and discovered, so please come put your show in there. We do have premium services, whether that’s production, certain courses, templates, those are going to come at a premium, but you get tons and tons of value for free. And the community right now is free as well. Now, at some point, we might have sort of like a Podtopia Plus section where there’s going to be some more deeper dives, even more valuable content, that will come at a minor monthly sort of cost, like any Netflix-style subscription. But as of right now, get in while it’s open, because it’s free for now. When the Podtopia Studio rolls out, that will be a monthly service as well, because it comes at a cost for our company. So as much as I would love to just give that away, we can’t afford to pay for the whole world in this space. So, yeah, but joining the network is free, and you’ll get tons and tons of value by doing so

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34:12 Jim Beach: You know, Joe, when you mentioned the network, you didn’t talk about listeners. Is it designed for listeners to come and discover new shows? Is it like that at all?

34:23 Joe Massa: Yeah, absolutely. So if you go to podtopianetwork.com, there’s a couple of things you’ll see. Obviously, the main homepage explains a little bit about what we do, some of our premium services. Scroll about halfway down the page, there is an RSS feed that has a bunch of different shows that we sort of have on our network that allow us access to their RSS feed, so you can hear all the new shows that come out in, you know, real time. So if you drop a show this morning, it’s going to be on our feed that morning. And we also have a podcast database, and then we have a media business database. So if you were just looking for some new ideas on shows, then go to the podcast section. You’ll see a collection. You can filter them by category, whether it’s health and wellness, you know, finance, anything that you’re looking for. And then we also, if you’re somebody in the business space looking to collaborate, we do have a media business section as well that’s growing every week and every month, and that’s where you can also filter them down by what they do. So if you’re looking for video editors, graphic designers, SEO companies, go in there, and you can probably find some well-vetted, extremely reputable companies in the space, because those are the people that we allow into our network. We try to vet them. Obviously, we can’t 100% guarantee the work of every company that wants to join, but we really have sort of a nice filtering-out process where we don’t want people that are scammers that are coming in to rip you off. We want people that are referred and recommended and are going to do good work for us. So absolutely, you can find new shows, new businesses, and recommend new shows. We want to meet everyone in the space. And, you know, with the millions of podcasts out there, that’s impossible to do unless you’re, you know, Spotify or Apple. But we’re trying to be that third option where, come to us, we’re going to help you grow, give you tools, and connect you to the right people, obviously beyond Spotify and Apple as well, but make sure you have a home on Podtopia Network. It’s free to do so.

36:18 Jim Beach: It’s free to put your show up there to make it visible for people who are surfing?

36:23 Joe Massa: 100%, and that will remain free forever. And not only that, if you join

36:27 Jim Beach: With your podcast, we had to make that a big announcement there and make it obvious. Keep going. Yeah.

36:37 Joe Massa: So what we’re going to do is we’re going to allow you to be on the network for free. We’ll also take your show and then we’ll put it in our weekly newsletter. So if you sign up this week, next week’s newsletter, we’ll put a backlink to your show. We’ll submit that out to our newsletter audience, and that way, maybe some more eyes and ears can be on your show as well.
36:56 Jim Beach: Have any idea, or do you want to share how many shows are part of the network?

37:03 Joe Massa: Yeah. So currently, we’ve got about 50 shows that have signed up for our network, but we work with about 200 other shows on a smaller basis, where they haven’t fully, you know, decided to submit their show, maybe on the fence a little bit. Like I said, by submitting your show to our network, it in no way, shape, or form suggests that it’s our show or that we own it or produce it. It’s just a working directory. So there’s no bad reason to not join the network. But currently, we have just about 50 to 55 shows on the platform.

37:36 Jim Beach: All different types? Or do you mention business focuses? For some other points you were pointing out earlier, all types of shows?

37:45 Joe Massa: Yeah, all types. We’ve got pop culture, arts and entertainment, tech shows, business, education, entrepreneurs, self-development, health and wellness, gaming, math and science. So, yeah, anything in any category that you can find on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, you’re going to find on our network as well, and we’re hoping to expand into every category. We want shows from, you know, top to bottom, left to right.

38:06 Jim Beach: Ooh, even the right, even the right.

38:11 Joe Massa: Network. I’ll take it.

38:14 Jim Beach: All right. Awesome, Joe. That is an amazing resource and lots of great things for people on both sides there, the listeners and the creators. So awesome network, and I will make sure that I get up there real fast if we get invited and asked to. We would love to have as much exposure there as possible. What are the pieces that companies have trouble with when they are launching a show? What are the things they should think about? Should they have an internal or an external host? Should they do it internally, externally? What are your thoughts on corporate podcasts?

38:55 Joe Massa: That’s a great question, and I think every business should have a podcast presence. We realize that not every business wants to do that, but businesses with a podcast and digital presence are seen as more reputable, more credible, and really more inviting to people, because that’s how a lot of people consume content. They want to see that you know what you’re talking about, that you’re delivering value. So, you know, one of the things that I think most businesses struggle with is just simply getting started, but overthinking it. You don’t need to have a million-dollar studio and a full production team. You can start small. You can literally use your cell phone, go into a nice room that’s quiet, put up a ring light and film yourself and talk content and come up with some things that you want to share, but solve problems in your episodes, or talk about market trends, or whatever is relevant to your business. You just simply don’t have to overthink it. So as you get more and more into producing podcasts or digital content, you’re going to get better at it. Once you start to see the return on your investment, then you can upgrade your cameras, your lighting. You can hire a video editor. But you don’t need that out of the gate. The simple strategy is just to start. Don’t get lost down the rabbit hole thinking that you have to have every piece of the puzzle figured out, because you simply don’t. Just get going. And I promise you, you’ll benefit. You’ll get more listeners, more viewers, more people that are wanting to work with your brand. You’ll also become more of a thought leader. So definitely don’t hesitate on the podcasting.

40:24 Jim Beach: What are the costs that businesses should expect to incur, especially if they would just want to outsource it to Podtopia?

40:34 Joe Massa: So it really depends on, you know, what sort of volume you’re doing, if you’re looking for, you know, full production, scripting, recording, all that. You know, some businesses, including ours, can get very pricey. That’s why we’ve sort of adopted the model of, we’re going to teach you how to do this. We’re going to give you the blueprint and let you take over. Because if you know how to do it yourself, you’re never going to be at the mercy of another company that may be bogged down, that maybe just decides they don’t want to do it. Maybe all of a sudden, you’re left there standing with the bag in the hand. Instead, let’s teach you how to podcast yourself. But as far as overall general pricing, you’re going to need like a hosting platform, which could be $12 a month. You’re going to need some basic equipment, even if it’s your cell phone, so, you know, things you might already have laying around, or an old camera that you want. A lot of that’s really minor, you know. A simple ring light you can get on Amazon for 15 to 100 bucks max, if you want a really good one. So real basic things to start with. But then you really just have to have a hosting platform and a strategy. The strategy we can provide for you, and we’ll teach you if you join our network. And then the basic equipment is pretty low-key. But if you’re looking for full-on production, some companies go as much as 234, $1,000 a month, but you also pay for what you get. You pay for what you get. So if you want to pay and go to a company that charges you $200 a month, you’re going to get $200 quality of editing. So really, just sort of dial in and weigh the pros and cons of your budget versus what your expected outcome is, and then find that middle ground that you can live with, and you’ll sort of start to figure that out as you go along. But again, we’re a resource. If you have questions, want to be introduced, either have let’s do it, or would like to meet one of the businesses in my network, you can reach out anytime, and we’re going to connect you.

42:26 Jim Beach: Excellent. And so talk about you as an entrepreneur now. So how many candles are you burning right now? And share whatever you want to about making money as the center of the podcast universe.

42:45 Joe Massa: I wish that was the full center of it. But for now, we’re just working our way into the atmosphere up there, the solar system, if you will. But, you know, being an entrepreneur, a lot of people think that it’s impossible or that it’s easy work. Both of those are 100% wrong. It’s not impossible. You just have to have a vision, you have to have a game plan, and then you have to put the right systems into place, you know, especially if you’re starting as a solopreneur or a very small, you know, place of business. You can’t do everything all at once, and you can’t spread yourself too thin right out of the gates. You need to really dial in what’s the most important. What’s going to move your needle monetarily? How are you going to make money? First focus your efforts on those pieces of the puzzle, as opposed to spending six weeks making a website, a logo, and all this stuff that no one really cares about. They want to know what problem you’re going to solve for them. I’ve never once given my business to a company solely on the fact that they had a really polished website or logo. Those are nice to see. But again, that’s not necessarily a game-changing decision-making factor for me. I want to know that this company can solve my problem. So start with a problem that you can solve, then build your business around that. And from there, build systems that eliminate busy work and make your day-to-day easier. If you have to spend hours and hours answering emails and pulling data from forms and putting it in spreadsheets, you’re wasting time doing work instead of doing the real work that’s going to make you get paid. So with that, I’ve had lots of the pattern down of what’s important and what’s not important to focus on. Failed well, because I started even in my teenage years. I wanted to do a landscape company, and I wanted to do a business company where I played music in brick-and-mortar stores. I wanted to have my own Pandora-style business, and a lot of them were great on paper, but then I started getting into the execution and realized there’s no way I can do this, either financially or legally, something along those lines. So failure is your greatest teacher. So I encourage you to try something and fail and then learn why you failed and get better at it. So I currently run a media company, Four Dimensions Media. I have Podtopia Network. I host a show called The Measuring Post, and then I have an AI automation company that’s sort of in its infancy, but it’s called Flowtopia. Hence Podtopia, to keep the nomenclature intact.

45:18 Jim Beach: Excellent. I love all of that. Tell us about, are you doing the suicide show as well, the My Suicide Story?

45:27 Joe Massa: So no, that must be one of your other guests. I don’t have a choice.

45:30 Jim Beach: I don’t know how I got that in here. You know what that is? That’s AI fakery, and AI put that in your bio.

45:39 Joe Massa: This is a learning lesson. AI is a great resource, but don’t rely on it for everything. You do have to do your own research, because I’ve had that happen for sure. But we’ve actually had some people on the show that have talked about suicide, so maybe that’s where that came from. But we work with shows, and on my show, The Measuring Post, we want to talk with, yeah, we want to talk with people from all walks of life. We’ve had cancer survivors to people that are in stage four terminal cancer. We’ve had people that have gone through discrimination, who have, you know, different stories. We just recently had a mother on who’s an advocate for her son who had autism. So we call it a place to learn and grow together. And the quick high level of The Measuring Post is, when I grew up, we had a two-by-four in the basement where we would measure our height, and that was the measuring post. We always measure ourselves quantitatively, like how tall we are, how much money we have, our age, but never qualitatively, like what kind of person you are. Do you have good integrity, good morals? Are you empathetic? Things of that nature. So we try to learn from people that have grown in one area or another, that will share their story, so the listeners can also grow from it.

46:52 Jim Beach: Excellent. I love that. That’s a fantastic resource. We use the kids’ door jamb into their room, you know, the door, yeah, and so they can see it every time they walk past it. And we do it once a year, and it’s a big deal. They love measuring their height every year. So, yeah, it was fun growing up.

47:13 Joe Massa: We used to always rub that. And what’s cool about that is, when my parents moved from that house, they actually cut that two-by-four out and took it with them to their new house.

47:21 Jim Beach: Great. Oh, that’s an excellent idea. I love it. I love it. And tell me about your AI automation company. I think that’s the scary thing about AI, is that people hear that that’s possible, but then they get on AI and the prompt is just sitting there blinking, waiting you to tell it something, and then they type in, you know, what are the favorite movies? And they have a conversation. Maybe they discover something useful, right, a good recipe or something. How do you make that leap to actually having AI automation?

47:57 Joe Massa: Yeah, and I think a lot of people are using AI as just sort of like a Google search bar on terrible.

49:25 Jim Beach: Yeah, exactly.

47:57 Joe Massa: And instead, you know, prompting is great, and getting ideas and sort of spitballing things back and forth with AI is fantastic, and that’s what a lot of people are doing now. But as we go back to the previous, you know, topic of like entrepreneurship and starting a business, when I started Flowtopia, what it was for was to automate some of my workflows. Because, you know, I have to have systems in place to do the job of 10 people, even though I’m by myself. So instead, I have the tools that I use. Like for my internal database, I use Airtable, and I use the Google ecosystem, and then I have forms. Instead of me having to connect them manually and take data from one and put it in the other, I use AI to automate those flows so it happens without me even knowing. So if you fill out a form in the middle of the night that goes to my email, when I wake up, it’s already in my CRM, it’s already on my website. I didn’t do any of that. So there’s a lot of low-code, no-code tools like make.com, Zapier, and n8n that will help you automate those flows. And essentially, that’s all we’re doing. We’re just taking the tools you already use, making them talk, and letting AI run the operation so you can focus on your skilled work and let that sort of busy work get handled by your robot, you know, underlord.

49:25 Jim Beach: And all of the processes you described, I think there are good videos on YouTube on doing, I’ve seen. I’ve been checking that out. And so there’s some good videos on YouTube, as is always the case on that particular topic. Loyal listeners. So I love what Flowtopia is going to do, and I can’t wait to see how that company grows as well. Back to the podcast topic, I have a couple more questions. How long does it take to produce a 30-minute show? So I want my business to do a 30-minute show. And we’re actually going to do it, you know, I’m going to hire someone to edit it and all that, and we’re going to, you know, be in it and all that. How long should I expect a 30-minute show to take?

50:14 Joe Massa: So as far as, you know, the first couple, it’s going to take longer than you expect, because 30 minutes turns into an hour because a technical problem came up, you forgot to say something, you got nervous when the camera came on. You had a bunch of, like, sort of that sort of stalling because you’re not trained on camera or on microphone yet, so be patient with yourself. As far as the recording goes and editing, if you’re doing the editing yourself and you’re starting from day one, you’ve never done this, it might take you two or three hours to produce a 30-minute episode. Where someone like me, who’s been doing this for 25 years, I can record a 30-minute episode in 30 minutes, and then I can edit it in 30 minutes. So I can do it in an hour. Might take you a day, but that’ll get quicker and more efficient with your practice. But if you’re hiring somebody like, you know, that’s a professional editor, they should be able to whip through that within an hour or two, max.

50:14 Joe Massa: But what you’re going to have to do is do a couple test runs before you bring in your first guest, before you do your first, you know, episode that’s going to go live. Set up your space and record a couple of dummy episodes, just to kind of get in the rhythm and figure out what’s working and what’s not working, and then batch record. That’s my biggest piece of advice. If you’re looking to start, instead of doing like a show every Monday where you’re recording, you’re going to burn out, or you’re going to get sick, or you’re going to go on vacation and you’re going to miss a Monday. Then your consistency drops, then your viewership drops. Instead, pick a day where you can record five or six in a row. You’re going to sound more consistent, look more consistent, then you’re going to give yourself a buffer.

51:47 Jim Beach: How frequently do you think that I need to do a show? Once a week, once a month, as a corporation?

51:53 Joe Massa: So there’s a bit of a, you know, the idea is weekly is the best format for a business, even if it’s not like a full 30 or 60 minutes, especially in the beginning. Weekly is ideal because you want to get those touch points. You want your audience to know that every Wednesday your show is coming out, or every Thursday, any day you pick. Thursday tends to be the day most people choose. Not sure why. That’s like the old sort of just, that’s what everybody does. So I’m going to do it. But weekly is ideal. If you do it like monthly, they need to be much higher quality. You need to really be doing a full deep dive that has a ton of value, something that’s not as easily created week to week. But doing them just like sporadically or once a quarter, people are going to forget you. I mean, just go talk to anyone and put a stopwatch on and time their attention span. It’s about a nanosecond. So if you go too far without giving them some content, they’re going to forget you. So my recommendation is weekly.

52:54 Jim Beach: Great, great advice. Joe, how do we find out and get in touch with you? Become part of the network. Follow you, all that, please.

53:03 Joe Massa: Yeah. So hop on to podtopianetwork.com, that’s the easiest place. You can fill out a form right there on the link. Go to the podcast page and click “Add Show.” Go to the business page, go “Add Business,” and then you can connect with me. I’m also on LinkedIn, Instagram. It’s Joe Massa, M-A-S-S-A, and if it’s not under Joe Massa, check Joe Massa Official. Some platforms, another Joe Massa has my name. So Joe Massa on LinkedIn is the easiest one, or podtopianetwork.com.

53:31 Jim Beach: Fantastic, Joe. Thank you so much for being with us, and we’d love to have you back and watch it all grow.

53:37 Joe Massa: Yeah, Jim, appreciate your time, my friend. It was a pleasure being on the show, and can’t wait to get you in the network and maybe have you on my show so you can share some of your wisdom.

53:46 Jim Beach: I would love it. We are out of time for today, but you know what we do. That’s why we come back tomorrow. Be safe, take care, and go make a million dollars. Bye. Now you.