March 24, 2026 – Transformation Economy Joseph Pine and Deep Natural Architecture Hugh Massie

0:04 Intro 1 : Broadcasting from am and FM stations around the country. Welcome to the Small Business Administration award winning school for startups radio where we talk all things small business and entrepreneurship. Now here is your host, the guy that believes anyone can be a successful entrepreneur, because entrepreneurship is not about creativity, risk or passion. Jim Beach,

0:26 Jim Beach : Hello everyone. Welcome to another exciting edition of School for startups radio. We are trying to give you the tips, the tricks and the techniques to be successful, to go out there and conquer the world, you don’t need passion. You just need to raise your arm up and say, I am going to be one of the ones that goes out there and does it. You don’t need risk. We only say $5,000 and if it costs more than that, don’t do it. Just don’t spend more than $5,000 to test. But you can get a restaurant open, a bar open for $5,000 I have seen it done. And creativity, we think creativity is awesome, but you just don’t need it. You go out there, copy another idea and execute it. Very, very well. Of course, we’re not going to copy any trademarks, copyrights or patents, but their idea is free game. Just make it better. Two amazing guests today. I’m really excited. Hugh Massey is with us. He is going to talk about the your DNA behavior that they can discern from looking at your profiles. So I said, Okay, show me. And so he went out, studied my profiles, all of my posts, everything, and sent me back a several page report that I would say was 95% accurate, not 100 but 95% absolutely fascinating. And so he is going to talk to us about how the process works, why you would want to do it, how you can benefit from it, and all of that. And his definition of DNA is deep natural architecture, or deep wiring. You want to do it go to the website is, go dna.ia, and then and then, actually, I think it’s the other way around. First off, we have Joe Pine, and then Hugh Massey. First here, just a second, Joe Pine is with us. We’re going to talk about the economy from the 45,000 42,000 foot level, from a high out, right. Where are we and what’s going to happen? He has a new book out called the transition economy. I my degree, formally in college, was degree of politics and economics, or something like that, where you combine the two everything was international politics and economics is what it was called. And Joe was talking about that sort of thing. And we have a great conversation about what’s going on right now, what we predict is going to happen in the near future, in the economy, and just absolutely fascinating. I think you want to hear and learn from him as well. Great stuff coming up here soon. We have the coolest AI product that I’ve seen so far, reflex AI in two days. And we have Sean Covey coming up, Seven Habits guy and Intel’s futurist all here in the next day or two. So it’s absolutely fantastic. Oh, and an airline owner, a guy who owns an airline this week as well. Stick with us. We will try to help you get motivated. Get off the sofa and go get started. Be right back. You.

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4:17 Jim Beach : We are back and again. Thank you so very much for being with us. Very excited to introduce my first guest today. His name is Joseph pine. He is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker and management advisor to Fortune 500 companies and us little startup guys. He is the co founder of strategic horizons. It is a thinking studio dedicated to bringing new value to your economic offerings. He talks about it in his new book, which I pulled away from, called the transformation economy. Joe, welcome to the show. How are you doing? I’m doing well. Jim, how are you today? I am well. So. I sell shoes, and I come to you and say, I need to add more economic value to my shoes so my customers buy more. I’m already getting laughs.

5:14 Joseph Pine : Yeah, so you sell a physical good, right? You’re in the retail business. You’re a service business. Somebody else is manufacturing these shoes, I presume,

5:24 Jim Beach : Slave factory in Asia,

5:27 Joseph Pine : Okay, that’s always good. That’s always good. Child labor, I assume, too, right? Oh, only under 10. Only under 10. Okay, perfect, perfect. All right, so what you need to do is hide that back. So first of all, you need to provide great service, right great service. You need to have the right sizes. You need to be able to get people to transact easily, to measure things and so forth. Then what you need to do is add on top of it a great experience, something that engages them. For example, you could have walking paths where you can try out the shoes and different sort of things. You know, me, I need motion control shoes, so to be able to verify their motion controls, put me on some rocks, right? A little slippery. Let me see, yeah, these are doing it. They’re get them to experience a product before they buy it. Then the chances they will buy it go up. And so those are the basic things in my new book. I talk about going on to another level of economic value, even beyond experiences, which is transformations. And can you think, for example, Jim, about why people are buying your shoes.

6:38 Jim Beach : They are trying to get in shape for the bikini summer.

6:42 Joseph Pine : All right, so they’re trying to get in shape. So that’s an aspiration that they have. How can you help them? Then proceed from just merely providing the shoes to what else would help them to be able to prepare for that bikini summer, to be able to get down in their way, to be able to look more fabulous and so forth. Maybe you work with partners to be able to do that, but the key is to ask, why? In fact, generally, not just one, why, but you ask like five, Whys the old manufacturing phrase has it to get down to some level of aspiration that goes beyond what you’re doing today, but has much more value for your customers.

7:20 Jim Beach : Well, I’m going to have running clinics every Saturday morning, and then a run together,

7:27 Joseph Pine : And you can measure how fast they run. You can measure how well they’re progressing, what their heart rate is and so forth. And you can show them that by joining my running clinic, which for which you should charge a membership fee to be able to belong to it that they’re actually increasing their lung capacity, they’re increasing their speed and and all based on having the right shoes so their feet don’t hurt when they get done.

7:50 Jim Beach : I should charge extra for this. I’m already confused. I thought this was my bonus giveaway. I thought that,

7:57 Joseph Pine : No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You need to charge for the value that you create, right? This is what the an economic transaction in a free market economy, is that I give you money for the value you create for me. And when it comes to experiences and transformations, not just for me, it’s within me that you’re engaging me inside. You’re actually changing me from the inside out, and that has tremendous value. In fact, there’s no more economic value you create than help somebody achieve his aspirations, and you need to be economically rewarded for that value.

8:35 Jim Beach : Okay, well, I certainly agree in that that makes sense, but don’t I want to give them something a little extra to, you know, grease the wheels and make them more likely to come and show up.

8:49 Unknown Speaker : It’s free. I mean free.

8:53 Joseph Pine : What free means is, I’m commoditizing myself, right? You give away stuff for free. It means that, okay, you must be charging more for the actual product you’re selling me. It must not really be worth what you’re telling me it’s worth because you’re giving me all this free stuff as a mechanism to try and capture me, try to try and grab me, right? It’s like a trick that you’re holding on to me.

9:19 Jim Beach : What about when the airlines give us bonus miles and a new lounge, you know, business class lounge, those are free.

9:29 Joseph Pine : Those are not always free, but often, yeah, it depends on your class, of course, right? It depends on your class. But what they’re trying to do is to get what they call loyalty right. What they’re really doing is bribing right? They’re bribing you with all this free stuff to get you to buy from them when true loyalty is when you buy from them even when they screw up, not because of all this free stuff, right? That’s what loyalty is, right? You think about friendship and how loyal you are friends even when they screw up. If you’re still their friends, and that happens

10:03 Joseph Pine : When you get to know them on an individual basis, where you where you recognize that every interaction you have with a customer is an opportunity to learn something about that individual living, breathing customer. And whenever you learn more, you’re able to customize more for them. When you customize more for them, they benefit, and when they benefit, they’re willing to interact again. And every interaction is not portraying to learn, right, that very tight virtuous cycle is what enables you to create a truly loyal relationship based again, on the value you provide for this customer individually.

10:37 Jim Beach : All right, let’s go backwards. Will you define transformation business, for me,

10:43 Joseph Pine : Sure, a transformation business is when you help somebody guide when you help people, when you help guide people, excuse me, to achieve their aspirations, right? That’s what a transformation is, to help them become who they want to become. We all have aspirations in our life. They’re incredibly difficult to achieve, and we increasingly call on other companies to be able to help us achieve those aspirations, whether it’s become more fit, whether it’s become more healthy, whether it’s to be able to retire, well, whether it’s to have purpose and meaning in our lives, all these things are aspirations that people have, and increasingly, look for companies to be able to help them achieve them. Okay?

11:27 Jim Beach : And how do I know what I’m selling? Let’s stick with shoes. I guess, what their Why is, you know, I just want to buy a pair of shoes. Dude, Don’t slow me down. The size

11:40 Joseph Pine : I’m out of here, right? So, so there are many people that that’s exactly what they want, right? There’s no reason not to cater to them by providing that very quick service that you do things excellently well. And what you’re providing then is time well saved, right? That you’re saving my time by being able to get me in and out there as quickly as possible. But what experiences provide is time well spent, that they value the time that they spend with you. And so not everybody wants that. Some people just want that quick service. But others are saying, yes, you know, I’m willing to spend my time, particularly if you engage me in a way that creates that memory, right? That’s the definition of an experience. And then fewer still, but still many, many people will say, you know, I really am buying shoes because I want to run better, because I want to be more fit, because get down to some core aspirations, because I want to make sure that I live a long, healthy life so I can see my grandchildren. That’s when you get at very core, emotional aspirations, and how do you figure that out? Well, yeah, ask them. You ask them, you provide a way of helping them think about, even visualize what they’re looking for. And thereby you can, you can then create that extra value for them and

12:57 Unknown Speaker : And charge for it.

12:59 Jim Beach : All right, will you work me through one of your corporate 500 examples? You don’t have to tell us the name, but just walk us through a fortune 500 example of this. Would you sure

13:15 Joseph Pine : Fortune 500 example? I mean, I’m thinking of a what really comes to mind is a company that’s not quite fortune 500 and I can name it. It’s it’s Italy. Have you ever been to an Italy gym

13:28 Jim Beach : Eagle? Say it again. E,

13:30 Joseph Pine : To the E, A, T, a, l, y, Oh, all right. I think there’s one in Atlanta, but they’re in most major cities. They’re actually based off of out of Italy. It was founded by a company by a person called Oscar farinetti, who wanted people to embrace the slow food movement. I don’t know if you know, if you’ve heard of the slow food movement, but it’s basically to slow down, to eat more slowly, to eat more healthily, to spend time with other people, conversing while you’re eating, and so forth. And so he created this grocery store. Now, what’s amazes me, it’s the most vibrant retail experience I’ve ever been in the world. And yet it’s a grocery store, but it’s not all with aisles all lined up in rows. They’re meandering through here. The theme of it is a journey through culinary Italy, and he wants you to look at how sumptuous all of these foods are that he provides, and get you to even spend time in two or three restaurants that they have inside the grocery store, plus a cafe, to get you to to come in, to slow down and to embrace this slow food movement. He’s basically inviting you to transform and and then he also has in there all five economic offerings. So think about this one. You can then apply this to the shoe business too, if you want. He sells commodities. He’s got the meats, he’s got the grains, he’s got the organic produce. He sells goods. He’s got the pasta, packaged pasta. He’s got appliances from which you can cook Italian meals. There’s. Quick service food that you can buy, plus the merchandising service of any retail store. And then these got the experiences with the cafe and the restaurants and so forth. You actually be taking your grocery cart, and you sort of like going around looking for food, and all of a sudden you find yourself in a queue to be able to sit down in the restaurant, to put your cart aside, sit down, have a great meal. Have a wonderful experience. But then also, there’s an emission feed cooking school. So for an extra charge, you go in and learn about how to better cook Italian meals. And the more you become a more more of an Italian chef, then the more you’re going to buy from the store, as well as embrace that, that philosophy, yes.

15:42 Jim Beach : And again, I want to push back on why they have to charge for that class. Costco gives samples for free.

15:48 Joseph Pine : If you don’t charge for it, people won’t value it, and it’s only when you charge for it that you have the wherewithal to keep it going in times of low income. And then stores that aren’t performing as well. You find Costcos of the world that are also cutting back on those things, and then you’re taking away something that people were getting, and that doesn’t make them feel good as well, you charge for the value you create. It’s a basic tenet of business.

16:18 Jim Beach : Yes, I would agree with that, but I still have to be enticed a little bit, you know, dated and courted a little bit, right, wooed.

16:30 Joseph Pine : And so there, there are ways that you can do that you can give some things, you least let them see what the possibilities are. You know, the cooking, cooking school may be in the back, but it’s in a way that you can see what’s going on. You see the signs that entice you to be able to do it. You say, Wow, I could learn to be able to cook what I just ate in the restaurant. That’d be fantastic, right? My family would love it. And so the restaurant is an enticement to go to the cooking school, as well as the appliances. If you buy an appliance, like, how do I use this thing? How do I get the most out of it that’s enticing you to go to the cooking school as well and eventually become a tired chef.

17:09 Jim Beach : All right, in the book, you talk about fostering human flourishing. Explain, please.

17:18 Joseph Pine : Yeah, so that’s foster human flourishing is the raison debt of business period. Why you exist as a business is to help people flourish in their lives, to become more and more of who they are meant to be. And any economic offering does that, even if you sell a commodity, they only exchange the money in their wallet, in their purse or in their account, because they think they’ll have more value out of buying your offering than they do from that money. So it makes them better off, right? Some cases, in very small ways. But as you go up this progression of economic value, from commodities to goods to services to experiences and finally, to transformations, you create more and more value that contributes to more and more flourishing on individuals. Transformation is the most direct route, because people say, you know, I want to flourish by becoming this person, and you help them achieve that aspiration.

18:14 Jim Beach : What’s the difference between an experience and a transformation? You talk about shifting from experience to transformation,

18:22 Joseph Pine : Yeah, experiences are memorable events that engage each individual, inherently personal way, and you think about that memory as the hallmark of the experience. But the problem with memories is it dissipates over time, right? They’re ephemeral transformations. Last, transformations are effectual outcomes, right? The outcome is what you’re actually selling with transformations. The customer is the product. The inputs that you provide don’t matter. It’s do they achieve their aspiration, right? And that’s lasting change that you need to help them sustain through time. And so again, there’s no greater economic value and create than to help somebody achieve their aspiration, become who they want to become and flourish as human beings.

19:06 Jim Beach : All right, let’s switch the conversation a little bit. Tell me about building your business strategic horizons. So I want to have a thinking studio here that’s sort of like yours, but, you know, I’m going to have some improvements on it, so, but tell me what I don’t know. Tell me the entrepreneurial history of of the business.

19:27 Joseph Pine : Sure, sure. So, so I originally started out working at IBM, so I come from that fortune 500 background. After I wrote my first book, I left IBM to see if I could make it on my own. Over 30 years later, my wife’s still not sure it’s going to work out, but so far so good. And one of my clients, early clients, was Jim Gilmore, who worked for CSC consulting, and I helped them embrace mass customization. That was my first book on efficiently serving customers uniquely. And we worked together. We got a lot. So well together, we decided to create a business. So we went into business. We took his marketing guy at CSC, Doug Parker, who’s now a part of the business as well. So our original theme was sort of like two gurus and a marketer. That’s what we’re about. And we like the idea of a thinking studio, because that’s what we do. We think we have my my personal purpose in life is to figure out what’s going on in the world of business and then design frameworks that first describe what’s happening and then prescribe what companies can do about it. So we think on companies behalf and help them think through their issues and what to do to create more economic value from their offerings.

20:42 Jim Beach : All right, we haven’t done a web example yet, so I have a, you know, totally based, I’m doing furniture.com Okay, okay, so we sell furniture. We have an incredible online marketplace. The founder was on a couple of days ago. So walk me through how we do the economic ad or furniture.com right?

21:08 Joseph Pine : So first of all, again, you’re in the services business. You’re helping people figure out what furniture they want for their homes and then shipping it to them. So the first thing to think about is, can I work with the manufacturers, and perhaps even you do some your own manufacturing, and to customize the furniture for each individual consumer, to get it to fit into their places and ways that standard furniture may not right? Customization. Again, my first book is the antidote to commoditization. Commoditization is like the law of gravity. It drags you. Drags you down year after year. Customization lifts you up and differentiates you. Turns goods into services and services into experiences. Now you can wow them with what you do. You want to think about the delivery of the experience, right that you when you deliver these, the furniture to people, what is the box opening experience? How do they put it all together? How do you design that? What are the videos you have that are not just informative but entertaining for people? How to put the furniture together, or how to place it in their homes. Think then about the experience of that furniture in their homes, as well as potential transformations. Think about this, I buy a house, I fill it with my furniture, but at what point does it become a home? I’m experiencing the house, but it’s truly transformed me when it becomes my home, right? That’s a new level of identity I have. What can you do to be able to help make that happen? It may include partnerships with design companies, interior designers, that can help you refurbish that and get it to be exactly the way that you want it, for example. So all those are ways that you think about going beyond just shipping furniture to providing more value through the customized services, experiences and transformations you provide.

23:00 Jim Beach : All right, let’s do a purely service based business with no physical component. Now, how would you have this at your business, strategic horizons? How do you up level a service business, right?

23:16 Joseph Pine : So we provide a lot of speeches and workshops. So those are experiences that go again, beyond mere information to helping you think about your business and be engaged while you’re doing it. So that you are engaged in this you’re creating memories of what the ideas the frameworks are. All of our stuff is based off of frameworks, versus just motivational speaking. So it’s things that you can take home with you, and you can even turn that into a transformation through what I call in the book, encapsulation. Encapsulation is when you take an experience and you do preparation beforehand, reflection afterward, and integration on an ongoing basis. So preparation is getting them to think either beforehand with what you provide for them to read before you get there. Or the first thing that you do in that speech is help them think about what their own possibilities are. Think about their own business. Think about what they might want to change in their business, and then see how that aligns with what I’m telling them as the possibilities are during the speech. And then at the end of the speech, you give them reflection, you let them talk to each other. What was the highlight of what each one of you learned? What were the things that really impacted you that you think could make a difference in the business? Where do you think we might go with these ideas, principles and frameworks that Joe talked about on the stage? All of that will greatly increase the value of what you provided. And then how do you help them? Then integrate that on an ongoing basis? So that’s where I can provide them with ongoing workshops, with analysis of what they’re doing, feedback on what they’re doing, as well as we have a transformation toolkit at strategic horizons.com/integration where specifically this. How you help integrate what you’ve learned, not just in the speeches, but just in the book, and the reading experience you get for that book to be able to make a difference in your company and for your customers, all right?

25:12 Jim Beach : And what are the pieces of that that you just described? Are you going to charge for you’re going to charge for the group rethink after your speech?

25:20 Joseph Pine : Not separately. It’s part of the speech. It’s integrated into the speech. So that’s just one big fee for the speech. If you do workshops and you charge separately for each one of those ongoing analysis is charged. Sometimes it’s just a per hour fee to do one on one consulting, and then the integration, the toolkit is its own charge. In fact, it’s a it’s a very high charge for what basically is a book of $495 because of the value it creates inside of people to help them operationalize what I talk about in the speeches, in the workshops and in the book.

25:55 Jim Beach : Your formal name is Joseph the second. What’s the rule? Big being a junior or a second, my second means you’re not named after your father. You were named after somebody else. That is the rule.

26:09 Joseph Pine : But that’s not the case. In my case, my father absolutely wanted me to name me after himself. It’s actually B, Josephine the second B being his first name, and my mom didn’t want it, didn’t want it, didn’t want it. And so the family lore goes. But she finally relented, but then she said, but nobody calls my son Junior. And so I became B, Josephine the second,

26:36 Jim Beach : And your father’s first name was B, just like B, E, E, or

26:40 Joseph Pine : My father had a no, I had a real first name, but my wife doesn’t allow me to tell people what it is.

26:46 Jim Beach : Okay. I was going through my family tree the other day, and I saw a whole bunch of names that I would like to Yeah.

26:52 Joseph Pine : It’s a very, yeah, exactly. It’s a very strange, you know, sort of semi southern name that she just, like, really hates. But I’ve always gone by Joe, you know, I didn’t even have to put the B on anything until TSA came along and made you have your name match your ID.

27:10 Hugh Massie : Yes, I have a child who is the fifth. Oh, wow.

27:15 Jim Beach : But he was the fourth was my older brother who passed at the age of three. So we did that, and I’ve often wondered what the official rules are, and then I found out there’s just no damn rules at all. Do whatever you want, right?

27:31 Joseph Pine : I always think it’s not till you get to the third that things get interesting. But my wife was adamant on not naming any sons, you know, the third and fortunately, we only ever had girls because I told her that, you know, I was gonna like when she was in her super, you know, post birth, I was going to put that name down there and then have her sign it without knowing what she was cited. But never had that opportunity.

27:56 Jim Beach : Well, the world needs girls too. So

27:59 Joseph Pine : That’s right, absolutely.

28:01 Jim Beach : How do we find out more about you? Follow you online, get a copy of the book.

28:05 Joseph Pine : Yeah, you can go to Amazon or anywhere books are sold. To be able to get a copy of the transformation economy, guiding customers to achieve their aspirations. You can link in with me at Joe Pine on LinkedIn. And again, our website is strategic horizons.com I’ll also mention I actually wrote the book on sub stack. Also paid for Jim, you know, 20 bucks a month, or $200 a year, and wrote it as a catalyst for getting it done. And I continue that sub stack at Transformations book, dot sub stack.com, for people who want to continue to learn more about what’s going on in the transformation economy.

28:42 Jim Beach : Fantastic, Joe. Thank you so much for being with us and helping us learn about this. I I’m going to spend some time thinking about this and get the book and figure how I can up my economic offerings as well. Thanks. Great stuff. Thank you, Jim. I appreciate it. We’ll be back in just a second to talk about the DNA behavior that we can now research and find out what your economic DNA is, we will be right back.

29:15 Intro 2 : Well, that’s a, that’s a that’s a wonderful question, actually, oh my gosh. I love the opportunity to do this. Thank you, Jim, wow, that’s, that’s, that’s a great one. You know, that is a phenomenal question. That’s a great question, and, and I don’t have a great answer. That’s a great question. Oh, that is such a loaded question. And that’s actually a really good question.

29:35 Jim Beach : School for startups radio, welcome back again. Thank you so very much for being with us. I’m very excited to introduce another great guest to our world. Please welcome Hugh Massey to the show. He is the executive chairman and founder of DNA behavior International. It is a behavior and money insights company. He is a Titan 100 CEO and widely recognized behavioral solutions architect. He has been very successful in applying this to all humans, and he has a goal of helping a billion people annually become more fluent in their own DNA and how that influences their behavior. And he lives just up the street from us. I’m exit six, he’s exit 11, I think. Hugh, welcome to the show. How are you doing?

30:29 Unknown Speaker : Yeah, I’m

30:30 Hugh Massie : Great, Jim. And just off the record, I’m off exit 707.

30:34 Unknown Speaker : Okay, you’re closer than I thought. Yeah. John’s

30:37 Hugh Massie : Creek is quite a widespread sort of area, geographically,

30:43 Jim Beach : Just recently named the number one city in a number one place in America to live.

30:47 Unknown Speaker : Also, I think that’s why I’m here,

30:52 Jim Beach : Because you were there it became number one.

30:55 Unknown Speaker : I think I’m

30:55 Unknown Speaker : Australianizing America.

30:58 Jim Beach : I think so. Well, welcome to John’s Creek. What is my DNA behavior? Does that mean that if my daddy is rowdy, I’m going to be rowdy too. So we call

31:11 Hugh Massie : Jim DNA. We say it is your deep natural architecture. So it’s really what we’re getting out there is a person’s natural, hard wired behavior that shaped from very early in life. So an element of it is your DNA that you get a conception, but it’s a lot of it is the life experiences, environments that you’ve lived in that that shape how you are hardwired as a person by the time you’re seven years old. And you know, everybody’s gone on a journey even up to that point of seven years old,

31:49 Hugh Massie : That shapes who they are,

31:53 Hugh Massie : And what that leads to is a understanding of your

31:58 Unknown Speaker : Inherent talents,

32:01 Hugh Massie : Leadership style, life operating style, but also how you deal with money. And that’s really the work that we’ve been doing over the past 20 years with the system and the you know, this DNA behavior, or natural DNA behavior, as we call it, shows up when a person is under pressure.

32:24 Jim Beach : Okay, certainly only when they’re under pressure.

32:28 Unknown Speaker : It tends to it tend

32:30 Hugh Massie : When someone’s not under pressure. They can mask that behavior. It can be a more socialized behavior. People when they’re more relaxed, are more conscious about how they adapt, as opposed to what’s your automatic response. And you know, maybe the easiest way to explain that is, for example, for listeners, you go to hire a sales person, they come into the room very charming, smiling, talking a lot, talking about their Rolodex, their contacts, all the great things that they’ve done in life. But when you when you start to put when you start to see actually how they operate, they don’t do all those things, and they’re not as good at closing as you might once have thought. They’re not as competitive as driven. And that’s what you’re really wanting to find out, is what’s, what’s a little bit more, what is not seen. And that’s, you know, where the natural DNA behavior comes in. It was like when I and I got to this, when I was working in Australia, with my wealth management business, I would have clients that would come in, and you know, we’d have nice conversation. They would tell me, this is what they wanted to do with money. We would get to some agreement about their risk profile, but then what I would see is, when they were under pressure, a totally different person show up, and that’s what I really wanted to know if I was going to advise them more successfully, is, what is your risk tolerance when you’re under pressure, not just what you think it is or say it is, if that, if that’s making sense, Jim,

34:17 Jim Beach : It is, it is. So do you test for this and then try to change behavior.

34:24 Hugh Massie : So we’ve built, we’ve built our own unique discovery process that’s, you know, psychometrics based. That’s why I came from Australia to to Atlanta. You know, we’ve worked with couple of universities over the years, and we work with other universities now to, you know, on on the psychometric measurement of it. So it’s completely science based approach. So we do, as you know, if you want to say test, I’d like to rather say assess or help someone discover. It is what we do. But we’ve also because of the world, the AI world we live in. Now we’ve also built an AI process that can predict how someone would respond to our questionnaire, and so we’ve built that process as well now, so what we call

35:11 Unknown Speaker : Digital scam, very interesting.

35:13 Jim Beach : So you you use that when you’re hiring or so.

35:19 Hugh Massie : So hiring is what I call the vanilla use of it. That’s the traditional assessment model. We’ve we’ve always seen the role of human behavior being much broader than hiring. You know, how is it used to onboard a person? How do you manage the ongoing employee experience? Or if you’re doing a culture transformation in your business, or, you know, new product introduction, how looking at how people are motivated, that’s that’s another level. You’re doing an M and A transaction. How do you bring two cultures together? You’ve got to understand the leaders to all the employees. That’s an area, but also we’ve been using it extensively in the wealth management industry, helping a financial advisor not only understand their own talent, but understand the talents and money behaviors of their clients, and then, how do they adapt to each client, to, you know, communicate better, to understand what that person really wants. To build a tailor made plan. So we’re, we’re deploying human behavior at scale to really help with personalization. Would be one major area, Jim and the other then would be more what I call people due diligence.

36:43 Jim Beach : So you take the assessment. Are there five, 610, generic stereotype results that pop out? Do most people fit into a certain bucket that you’ve been able to define?

36:58 Hugh Massie : Yeah, so, so if you want to call it. We have 10 unique styles, and people fall into one of 10 unique styles, but that’s made up of a lot of metrics underneath. And you know, for example, I’m in an initiator style, but no two initiators are the same. And so you’ve got to look at the psychometrics underneath that. That’s where we’ve got a range of factors and sub factors that we look at that bring out how each person is is more unique.

37:35 Unknown Speaker : Okay? And so

37:38 Jim Beach : If I were to take the assessment for two or three hours, or however long it takes, what, 10 minutes. It takes. 10 minutes, 10 minutes, okay, wow, in 10 minutes, you can figure out everything about me.

37:50 Hugh Massie : Basically, we can, we can actually measure 4000 insights about you, if you want that in 10 minutes, yeah.

37:57 Jim Beach : Well, can you give me one of the questions so I get an idea what that looks like.

38:01 Hugh Massie : So the questions are in a forced choice model. We’re going to ask you, Jim to choose between, are you aspiring, patient or detailed? That would be one question, and you choose most like on one side, like you would choose aspiring, because I’m much more goal driven person, and I would choose patient as my least like, because I’m an entrepreneur. I’m, you know, fast paced. Want to, you know, get on with things. So patience isn’t my number one thing. Naturally. I’ve learned more patients, but it’s, it’s not a natural act. And then I’d leave out details. And you do, you answer that 46 times, and it takes an average of 10 and a half minutes. And we get that, we get that full picture of who you are.

38:50 Jim Beach : Okay, so what things would it be able to say after the 10 minutes and the 46 questions?

38:57 Hugh Massie : So, you know, we’re talking in the context of entrepreneurs and startup businesses, you know, what? What is it? What is it? What are the metrics for a founder? We’re because we’ve done research on this, you know? We’re going to look at one. What’s your resilience level? That would be one key. One, your ability to handle

39:15 Hugh Massie : Risk, creativity, work ethic, your goal drive,

39:23 Hugh Massie : And we’re going to then look at charisma, how you promote

39:27 Hugh Massie : Things that would be examples of talents.

39:32 Hugh Massie : We’re looking for in a founder. And then we’ve got some other metrics we might look at in a leader, in terms of how do they get results? How do they manage relationships? Again, their goal drive their level of innovation, how they handle money, you know? And so we, you know, we break all of that out in that, and that’s more. And this is in the, you know, startup, VCPE. Type area.

40:02 Unknown Speaker : They’re the types of things we’re looking at.

40:05 Jim Beach : Okay, and then can you give advice on changes that I need to make?

40:12 Unknown Speaker : Yeah, so we always

40:13 Hugh Massie : Say that the natural, hardwired behavior is your is the is the core of who you are. It’s the starting point. Then we’re going to look at and say, okay, in the in the operating environment you’re in, this is how you capitalize on those inherent strengths, but this is also where what you need to do to ensure that you don’t overplay those strengths at the wrong time, like some people, for example, who are very outgoing, very communicative. Yes, we want you to use that talent, but there are times when loose lips sink ships. So you need to balance that out a little bit, or you could be like me Hugh Massey, a very results driven, fast paced, goal driven, type leader, but I also need to know when to temper that and focus on the relationship and not make people feel like a transaction. So that’s where the coaching then steps in. But we’re, you know, we don’t want to change who the core of a person is, but we want them to know how to adapt depending on who they’re dealing with and in what situation.

41:22 Jim Beach : Okay, so give me an example of what sort of changes that I could make. Are people actually able to change, especially at our advanced ages?

41:30 Hugh Massie : You so what we’re saying is that natural, hardwired behavior, the natural DNA behavior, is essentially there for life. If you’re in, if you’re born, if you are impatient

41:41 Hugh Massie : At the core, you will generally be impatient,

41:47 Hugh Massie : Particularly when you’re under pressure. Now with consciousness, Jim, you can learn to be more patient, okay, and

41:56 Unknown Speaker : But you, but you’re never going to completely

42:01 Hugh Massie : Get there to flip the other side, and nor do you want to. That’s because this is about your strengths. But you know what I would say to a leader, you know, like me, who and a lot of them, a lot of leaders are more results driven. You need to focus on, for example, on your approachability. You need to be warmer when people come and ask you questions, and you need to, you know, soften up some of the language. Look at how you ask questions, and that’s what we’re going to get people to adapt to do so that they are more approachable as a leader, because that’s going to be important to building the culture without diminishing their capability to get results.

42:46 Jim Beach : All right, absolutely fascinating. And can you tell if an entrepreneur is going to be successful based on this?

42:54 Hugh Massie : Yeah, so we’ve done, you know, we’ve done quite a lot of research studies, particularly over the last 10 years, where we’ve done a lot of measurement of the behaviors of successful entrepreneurs. We’ve done research studies. We did one last year on, you know, all the leadership teams of the Fortune 500 the s and p5 100. And it’s very clear and consistent set of traits that that come out in all of these situations and settings, so we know what the behaviors need to be, and that lines up against other research that’s put out there. We’re just able to put very

43:35 Unknown Speaker : Specific measurement on it. All right, absolutely fascinating.

43:41 Jim Beach : So what are the what is the revenue source that this becomes? Do you work with HR offices to test people prior to hiring?

43:53 Hugh Massie : So, so for us, that’s one area, but I was alluding to that before. That’s not the biggest area of our business. You know, we’re doing a lot of work with, for example, private equity VC type firms on the due diligence that they might do before they buy into a company. So we’re being brought in at that level to assess leadership teams then help with cultural integration. But the other big area that we work on, with, with with using the behavioral insights, is personalization. So for example, we’ve got some clients at the moment that have got huge databases, and they want to create a much more of people, you know, customers, prospects and their employees, and they want to create a much more personal experience, we’re able to create that data, turn it into behavioral data that they now can use to personalize the experience. So that’s where we’re being far you know, far more innovative in. How this behavior is applied, because there’s lots of people out there that are using a tool for hiring. Could, could could more tools be used for hiring? Systems like ours be used in the hiring process? Absolutely. But there’s a whole lot of other areas that human behavioral insights can be used.

45:24 Hugh Massie : So how do we I’m sorry, go ahead, because at the end of the day, behind every decision is a person.

45:32 Hugh Massie : Doesn’t matter what that decision is, and behind every action and relationship is a person. And so that opens up the opportunities to use behavioral insights to help improve you know, if you want to call it the action interaction and decision.

45:50 Jim Beach : All right, how do I use AI to make better decisions with this?

45:56 Hugh Massie : So, so, so, for example, the first thing is, is that our

46:02 Hugh Massie : Digital scan process can be deployed to understand

46:09 Hugh Massie : Not only your own behavior, but also the behavior of the people you’re going to interact with. So we’re just launching an app we call go DNA, and that can be found at Go dna.ai, where, let’s say that you’re a salesperson and you want to understand the buying pattern of a person that you’re you know that you’re selling to. You can go and run our digital scan process, which is AI driven, discover more about who they are, you can then ask our gene AI tool, to give you a customized script to to sell to that person, or to, you know, to build a deeper connection. So that’s how, for example, a sales person would use it. Or, as I was alluding to before we can, we can go and to the database of a company, and we can turn their transactional and demographic data about

47:10 Hugh Massie : Every person there into behavioral data using AI, right?

47:18 Hugh Massie : And then AI is then used to, you know, create, you know better. Matched up sales situations, matched up products, etc.

47:28 Unknown Speaker : How do I learn

47:30 Jim Beach : The DNA of someone I’m trying to sell to?

47:34 Hugh Massie : So you digitally scan them. So let’s say that you’re going to, you’re going to have a meeting this afternoon with Max Jones.

47:40 Hugh Massie : You would put into our system, into our app,

47:46 Hugh Massie : And if you know where he works, so let’s say that he works at Cox Communications. You put that in there, and then the digital scan is going to, within the next 30 seconds, is going to give you the psychometric profile on max Jones.

48:01 Jim Beach : Digitally scan not their face. What do you digitally scan their bio, their resume? Yeah.

48:07 Hugh Massie : So what we there’s lots of public Usually, once we know where the person works, then we can go and find public information about that person, and that is then used to provide inputs to our system.

48:24 Unknown Speaker : Okay, so when you scan

48:26 Jim Beach : For my DNA, do you look at my social media or

48:32 Hugh Massie : So, it’s we’re not going into any Jim we’re not going into any private accounts. We’re just using public, public information. But we could, we could find out quite a lot about your, you know, life and career history, for example, which would be important. Other things that you’ve been saying and doing out there, the fact that you run a podcast, you know you’re out there. You know you’re out there, quite a lot. We can, we can create that digital scan, right from that kind of information, but we can do it for people that are not as much

49:05 Unknown Speaker : A public figure as you.

49:08 Jim Beach : And what happens if every single post that I do is actually done by my virtual assistant in the Philippines? Are you testing me or my VA that we

49:20 Hugh Massie : Actually getting to a test of we’re actually getting to a test of you, because we know who you are as a person, where you’ve worked the types of things you’re doing. So that’s going to be prime over what a VA is putting out there about you from from the Philippines.

49:39 Unknown Speaker : Okay, so the system’s going behind that.

49:42 Jim Beach : I have gone on chat GPT, and said, What do you know about me? And not biographical, but you know what personality traits? And it was pretty accurate. I have to, I have to say, I’ve never really told it about myself. Out myself, but I’ve done 100 hours, 200 hours on chat, GPT, doing my projects and tasks, and it knows the different things I’m working on, and it knows this book is at this point and this book is at another point. So how does all of that let you find out if I’m patient or not?

50:21 Hugh Massie : So what could because we, we in our system, you know, we’ve, we’ve profiled three and a half million people over the last 20 years. So we’ve built a lot of behavioral insights, psychometrics, benchmarks about a person. And so we know, out of you know, in a way, if you think about it, we’ve got a questionnaire that tells us if someone answers. It tells us whether you’re patient or not. But now, with AI, we’re able to make a prediction

50:55 Hugh Massie : With a fairly high degree of accuracy about that using public data sources,

51:04 Hugh Massie : And what we come up with with our digital scan may or may not be consistent with with what chat GPT is saying, but we’re going to come up with a much deeper set of metrics on you with probably a higher level of accuracy.

51:21 Jim Beach : So can I take a test like that? Go DNA.

51:26 Unknown Speaker : Go dna.ai.

51:28 Hugh Massie : Is where we are launching an app over the next couple of weeks. It’s we’re just going through the final tests where any, any person will be able to access this and start digitally scanning whoever they want. Otherwise, at the moment, you know, we do it. We’re obviously, we’re already doing this from our main platform, you know, we digitally scan 275 million people last year. So we’ve got a pretty big database with this. But the Go DNA app is a way in which you know if you’re a salesperson or a podcast host, a financial advisor, and you want to get quick insights on who the person you’re interacting with is.

52:11 Hugh Massie : It can be done. Well, that’s fascinating. I have to play with that. I’m going to check on my kids and I Yeah, absolutely. Emily members, to see what do it

52:21 Unknown Speaker : On the baby. Do it on

52:22 Unknown Speaker : The babysitter, everything. Wow, oh, wow.

52:27 Jim Beach : I’m gonna have fun with that. I can’t wait for that. That’s gonna be fun. Unbelievably. Hugh, we have run out of time. We have burned through our time, and I need to run an ad. Tell us how we can get in touch with you, find out more, and give us the GO dna.ai, URL, one more time, give it

52:45 Hugh Massie : To us all. Yeah, so, so, so, so, we’ll start at the end. Go DNA is where this app is that dna.ai, is that’s where the this app is sitting, where any one of you can go and get your own profile, and then profile everybody under the sun that you want to to build more connection. You know, we call it a connection intelligence app. You can learn more about me from my LinkedIn profile. Hugh Massey, M, a double S, i e at in I’m in Atlanta, dnabehaviour.com and learn a lot more about what we’re doing. Fantastic.

53:24 Jim Beach : You great information. I’m going to get addicted to this, and I love to have you back. Thanks a lot. Great information.

53:31 Hugh Massie : All right. Jim is fantastic. Thanks a lot. Really enjoyed

53:35 Jim Beach : It, as did i We are out of time for today, but back tomorrow. Be safe, take care and go make a million dollars. Bye. Now you.